1. #1
    Srikandi's Avatar Senior Member
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    A long commentary, but I need to get this off my chest. I realize it's unfashionable to raise these kinds of issues nowadays, but I'm old enough to remember when women had to fight to have a life outside the home; and there are still domains, including computer gaming, where there's still a lot of fighting to be done.

    Having finished the Myst books, I feel the need to complain about the Invisible Woman syndrome. The phenomenon where "person" (here, "D'ni") = "male" and women are minimally mentioned, except in passing in support roles (mother/wife).

    Yes, there are two apparent exceptions in the books -- Anna/Ti'ana and Catherine/Katran. But they are, I'm afraid, "the exception that proves the rule". More on them in a moment.

    We can view this problem on two levels: one, the sexism of D'ni society, which is easy to document from the books; two, the sexism of the books' authors and indeed the creators of the series, which is surely going to be more contentious but in my opinion is just as evident.

    D'ni society seems to almost completely exclude women from public life. There is apparently no public office that a woman holds, or has ever held. Guild membership is unavailable to women, and they were not taught or allowed to write Ages -- again, Ti'ana and Katran being the only exceptions.

    Compare this male-only situation to the traditional societies of Europe and Asia, where in spite of extensive separation in male and female roles, there have been throughout history notable queens, empresses, and legendary woman warriors.

    The only D'ni woman who makes more than a passing appearance in the books is Tasera, Aitrus's mother. She has no personality, serving merely as a nurturing and supportive presence for her family. We meet female "bookworlders", but apart from that the best we get is a mention or two of a wife (who is inevitably devoted to her man).

    Apparently the same is true in the "Utopian" Terahnee society -- even among the upper classes, whose way of life Atrus so admires before he learns of the existence of the Unseen. Once more, all public power apparently rests solely in the hands of the men, and it doesn't occur to Atrus (or Catherine or Marrim) that this might not be so ideal after all.

    And in the other "book worlds" the same situation seems to hold. If a mention is made of "elders", for instance, it turns out (surprise) that the elders are all male.

    Let me come now to the question of the sexism of the creators of this narrative tradition. Is it a matter of a description of a sexist society, or of a sexist description of a society? In my opinion, surely the latter. What struck me immediately is that the patriarchal characteristic of all the cultures mentioned in the books -- not just the D'ni -- is treated by the authors as unremarkable, as though this characteristic were a necessary and inevitable characteristic of not just our planet, but all imaginable humanoid cultures. This state of affairs is not stated in the introduction to these societies, and it is very rarely commented on in subsequent text. It seems that with all the imaginative richness of these stories, the one place where the imagination of their creators completely fails is in imagining a culture where women play more than a support role.

    Let us return to the "strong women" of the series, Ti'ana and Katran. These women appear to be counterexamples to everything I have said above. They enter D'ni society and immediately take on roles that have never been permitted to women, even writing Books. Here we have to ask: since both women are appalled by the social injustices they witness, why is neither appalled by the concomitant gender inequity? Again, like the series' authors, they seem content to be excpetions and happily accept a world in which their sisters never taste their freedom and power.

    It also seems to me that both these women are not really better off than Tasera in terms of having a personality. They are idealized: both are beautiful, strong, intelligent, wise, and of course, nurturing as well, totally devoted to their husbands and children. Neither has a single fault, and in fact, they are pretty much indistinguishable from each other in terms of personality (compared to Aitrus, Gehn, and Atrus, who each have inner conflicts and some complexity).

    Hope for the future? I think so. The canon as extended in Uru attends quite a bit more to "the role of the woman"; we learn of the Prophetesses who advised the kings (but were largely ignored), of pregnancy and childrearing. And of course there's Yeesha, who whether you like her or not, is both powerful on her own -- without a male mentor -- and complex. Besides her, however, the only other female we are exposed to among all the characters in the Cavern soap opera is Marie Sutherland -- the most invisible of the DRC Council. The DRC could do a lot better than this; if they were a university department, they'd be looking at a lawsuit if they didn't make some serious efforts to promote more women.

    Let's hope, though, that the positive trend continues; that we have more encounters with women in the game, hear more of their stories, and get to see them as complete persons, good, bad, and ugly. Judging from the number and volubility of women on these forums and in the game, we are involved and want a place in this new world.

    Srikandi, 00730535

    [This message was edited by Srikandi on Fri December 19 2003 at 04:38 PM.]
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  2. #2
    Srikandi's Avatar Senior Member
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    A long commentary, but I need to get this off my chest. I realize it's unfashionable to raise these kinds of issues nowadays, but I'm old enough to remember when women had to fight to have a life outside the home; and there are still domains, including computer gaming, where there's still a lot of fighting to be done.

    Having finished the Myst books, I feel the need to complain about the Invisible Woman syndrome. The phenomenon where "person" (here, "D'ni") = "male" and women are minimally mentioned, except in passing in support roles (mother/wife).

    Yes, there are two apparent exceptions in the books -- Anna/Ti'ana and Catherine/Katran. But they are, I'm afraid, "the exception that proves the rule". More on them in a moment.

    We can view this problem on two levels: one, the sexism of D'ni society, which is easy to document from the books; two, the sexism of the books' authors and indeed the creators of the series, which is surely going to be more contentious but in my opinion is just as evident.

    D'ni society seems to almost completely exclude women from public life. There is apparently no public office that a woman holds, or has ever held. Guild membership is unavailable to women, and they were not taught or allowed to write Ages -- again, Ti'ana and Katran being the only exceptions.

    Compare this male-only situation to the traditional societies of Europe and Asia, where in spite of extensive separation in male and female roles, there have been throughout history notable queens, empresses, and legendary woman warriors.

    The only D'ni woman who makes more than a passing appearance in the books is Tasera, Aitrus's mother. She has no personality, serving merely as a nurturing and supportive presence for her family. We meet female "bookworlders", but apart from that the best we get is a mention or two of a wife (who is inevitably devoted to her man).

    Apparently the same is true in the "Utopian" Terahnee society -- even among the upper classes, whose way of life Atrus so admires before he learns of the existence of the Unseen. Once more, all public power apparently rests solely in the hands of the men, and it doesn't occur to Atrus (or Catherine or Marrim) that this might not be so ideal after all.

    And in the other "book worlds" the same situation seems to hold. If a mention is made of "elders", for instance, it turns out (surprise) that the elders are all male.

    Let me come now to the question of the sexism of the creators of this narrative tradition. Is it a matter of a description of a sexist society, or of a sexist description of a society? In my opinion, surely the latter. What struck me immediately is that the patriarchal characteristic of all the cultures mentioned in the books -- not just the D'ni -- is treated by the authors as unremarkable, as though this characteristic were a necessary and inevitable characteristic of not just our planet, but all imaginable humanoid cultures. This state of affairs is not stated in the introduction to these societies, and it is very rarely commented on in subsequent text. It seems that with all the imaginative richness of these stories, the one place where the imagination of their creators completely fails is in imagining a culture where women play more than a support role.

    Let us return to the "strong women" of the series, Ti'ana and Katran. These women appear to be counterexamples to everything I have said above. They enter D'ni society and immediately take on roles that have never been permitted to women, even writing Books. Here we have to ask: since both women are appalled by the social injustices they witness, why is neither appalled by the concomitant gender inequity? Again, like the series' authors, they seem content to be excpetions and happily accept a world in which their sisters never taste their freedom and power.

    It also seems to me that both these women are not really better off than Tasera in terms of having a personality. They are idealized: both are beautiful, strong, intelligent, wise, and of course, nurturing as well, totally devoted to their husbands and children. Neither has a single fault, and in fact, they are pretty much indistinguishable from each other in terms of personality (compared to Aitrus, Gehn, and Atrus, who each have inner conflicts and some complexity).

    Hope for the future? I think so. The canon as extended in Uru attends quite a bit more to "the role of the woman"; we learn of the Prophetesses who advised the kings (but were largely ignored), of pregnancy and childrearing. And of course there's Yeesha, who whether you like her or not, is both powerful on her own -- without a male mentor -- and complex. Besides her, however, the only other female we are exposed to among all the characters in the Cavern soap opera is Marie Sutherland -- the most invisible of the DRC Council. The DRC could do a lot better than this; if they were a university department, they'd be looking at a lawsuit if they didn't make some serious efforts to promote more women.

    Let's hope, though, that the positive trend continues; that we have more encounters with women in the game, hear more of their stories, and get to see them as complete persons, good, bad, and ugly. Judging from the number and volubility of women on these forums and in the game, we are involved and want a place in this new world.

    Srikandi, 00730535

    [This message was edited by Srikandi on Fri December 19 2003 at 04:38 PM.]
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  3. #3
    I just wanted to say "wow" and "thanks" for bringing this up.

    I had read the books as if they were commenting on a sexist society, and had taken the "invisible woman" as you phrase it as part and parcel of their being a classist, chauvanist society. I'll continue to believe this in-cavern,of course.

    But it really hadn't occured to me that it might be just as much the authors, i.e. that they might not have considered just how very much women were excluded from public life in D'ni society. And yes, I had noticed the gender imbalance in the DRC itself. And I hadn't noticed, but there's a dearth of female villans as well.

    Yeesha of course is interesting... both powerful and complex, as you noted.

    I don't know how much attention I'd pay to female characters always being terribly devoted to their husbands, though. When the game and book writers tell us anything about the married menfolk, I think all of them were quite devoted to their wives also. Let me know if there are exceptions, because I can't recall any.

    FREE PHIL HENDERSON!
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  4. #4
    I think you missed the book on the Dakotah Rooftop that discusses the role of women as the priestesses in D'ni because they were seen as being closer to the Maker than the men. How's that for a role reversal?

    [edit] okay, rather, I'm simply tired and missed that sentence. Still, given how little has been published about D'ni, there's not, IMHO, a reason to accuse Rand, Robyn, Ryan, and Richard of being chauvanistic pigs . We've been given a glimpse of D'ni as it was... and honestly, it wasn't as utopian as a lot of people have made it out to be. Even the Book of Ti'ana is largely filled with evidence that things are starting to come apart at the seams in the Cavern. Ti'ana (who is far more grounded and scientific than the dream-driven Catherine, which is a huge personality difference) was a force of change in D'ni, giving people who had never had a voice the ability to take part in their government. Catherine worked side by side with Atrus to re-build D'ni, and I think the lessons learned from these two women will have a lasting effect on the D'ni who now live in Releeshahn. Beyond that, there weren't many places to put female characters into the books, or the games. Think about it. What we've seen was largely a history based on the personal stories of Atrus and his forebearers. We've seen his grandparents, his great grandparents, his father, references to his mother, his wife, his two sons, and his daughter, plus a cast of supporting characters, none of whom seem to have been married, and not all of whom were men. I don't think it's an intentional dearth as it is simply a lack of places to cast characters . The situation on Terahnee being so similar to that of D'ni speaks to the common root of their system of government on Garternay, more than an intentional "this is how things are and always will be" message from the authors.

    As I said, D'ni wasn't as great as I think a lot of people say. There was a lot wrong with it, almost from the moment that Ri'Neref died. He had high ideals, but they barely outlasted him.

    You also forgot to mention Marrim . While she is not D'ni (although, neither are Catherine or Anna), she does feature prominently in its restoration and is a very different character than Ti'ana or Catherine.

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    [This message was edited by Alahmnat on Fri December 19 2003 at 06:30 PM.]

    [This message was edited by Alahmnat on Fri December 19 2003 at 06:34 PM.]
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  5. #5
    maztec's Avatar Senior Member
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    I take it Laura Croft doesn't count as a female heroine..

    I personally feel the "sexism" is not at all intentional. But a typical oversight of Society.

    What I would like to recommend is for there to be more fan fiction with female characters -- I've noticed the bulk of fan fiction is male oriented. BTW, LOVED the story (earlier thread) that posed me as a female. That was great... Moving along.

    If anything it's cultural sexism rather than artistic or intentional sexism. Then again, perhaps it is the way the story needs to be told? Or perhaps the creators do not understand the female perspective well enough to write a story of any merit that is told from that perspective. Thus an incentive for others to write that story.

    Then I turn to the question of, "But aren't women perfect?" When brought to the comment on the women being "beautiful, strong, intelligent, wise, and of course, nurturing as well, ...Neither has a single fault." <-- no Faults, see, Women are perfect *ducks and runs for cover*



    Overall, very well put Srikandi. I couldn't agree with you more. But as is my nature, I had to pose return questions.

    Perhaps you, as an explorer, could create a female character in yourself that develops a strong story and association with womens lit within the D'ni world.


    One last point/question. The multitude of places created by the D'ni are just that. Created by the D'ni. They will each carry certain traits of the D'ni. So, it is quite likely if the D'ni were extremely sexist that they would NOT write worlds were the women were primarily in power. Thus even on earth, us being writers of their history in reflection upon the D'ni, WE would be naturally disposed to writing from a sexist viewpoint because we were created sexist i ntheir image.

    Gah, isn't that last one a twist.


    Anyway, keep up the warpath!


    Maz
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  6. #6
    Srikandi's Avatar Senior Member
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    Alahmat: Marrim is evidence of some progress, yes.

    I have to say though that the introduction of Marrim, like that of Anna and Katran, strikes me as somewhat problematic just because it ISN'T problematized by the authors. Here we have a society where women are completely AND WITHOUT COMMENT excluded from public and intellectual life; then these three women step in and take up brand-new roles, also without comment. That kind of change doesn't happen without both a social revolution and a psychological one; both men and women have to change their ways of thinking, but that apparently was not an issue for Aitrus, Atrus, or even Gehn (who taught Katran to Write), unlike all their forebears.

    This suggests that all the women of earlier times were simply wimps; their place was waiting if they just stepped into it. Personally I don't find that credible.

    Maztec: Well, your forum avatar is a flower...

    What you say about the reason for the shape of the D'ni Ages has some plausability. But I would be more convinced if I could readily distinguish the sexist perspective of the D'ni from the perspective of the authors.

    Not all games suffer from this problem. (Lara Croft aside, and I think we all know why she doesn't make a good case for the feminist perspective ) In the adventure genre, both Syberia and The Longest Journey have very credible, complex female protagonists; and they're the most acclaimed recent releases. And most RPGs are pretty much equal-opportunity -- even unrealistically so. (Though they do vary in the degree of sexualization of the female avatar -- the "chain-mail bikini" syndrome...)

    Anyway, thanks to all for the discussion.

    Srikandi, 00730535

    [This message was edited by Srikandi on Fri December 19 2003 at 07:01 PM.]

    [This message was edited by Srikandi on Fri December 19 2003 at 07:02 PM.]
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  7. #7
    Bah. Lara Croft? Psh. Just a bimbo version of Samus Aran.

    Yes, I have nothing of substance to contribute to this thread.
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  8. #8
    Kwartha's Avatar Senior Member
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    Srikandi, very nice post. I would only add to it, that as much as you can find some poor female characters in Myst games, the men don't stack up much better. Yes, Terhanee and D'ni (and quite possibly Gaterney (sp?)) were patriarichal societies, but they were all very distopian societies that eventually fell into ruin. Men and Kings are shown as horribly corrupt, arrogant conquerors and hunters who flaunt their power and wealth.

    Gehn, Savedro, Sirrus and Achnar have been the most prominent on-screen male characters, and they were all evil or crazy or both. While Aitrus and Atrus are both held up as heros in the Myst tales, they both have very real failings and weaknesses. Aitrus was to a large degree responsible for the fall of D'ni (even though the D'ni blamed Ti'ana). Atrus was responsible for the fall of Terahnee and the failed restoration of D'ni which Yeesha is now (hopefully) succeding at. There are no Rambos or Schwartzenegers in Myst.

    You seem to have overlooked the Moiety, and Rivenese society at large, which was (implied to be) a somewhat matriarichal society. Despite Gehn's best efforts, his male soldiers (Cho) and clerics were never able to wield any true power on Riven. Catherine plays a much more active heroic role in Riven than Atrus does.

    You also failed to comment on perhaps the most important player in all the Myst games - "The Stranger" or "Atrus' Good Friend" - the one you got to play. In almost any other adventure game, the player is either forced to be a male or female character, or is given a choice between a male character and a female character. I think Myst was such a huge success because it didn't bring the gender of the main character into play at all. It isn't even an issue in the game, and no assumptions are made about it. None of the problems encountered are solved using stereotypical male solutions (fighting, forcing, competing, etc.) or stereotypical female solutions (compromise, nurturing, empathy, etc.).

    Again, a brilliant thread. I hope the devs take a good, long look at it. You could clearly make a wonderful Gender Studies thesis on the role of women in the Myst series.
    ---
    On a related note, when I was rolling a character for a game of Dungeons and Dragons recently, I noticed something rather interesting. Despite the fact that you can roleplay as any number of imaginary races (Elf, Half-Orc, Dwarf, Halfling, etc.), pick from a number of different fantasy classes (Wizard, Cleric, Paladin, etc), and use a wide variety of different fantasy weapons in a completely fantastic setting, there were only two choices for sex: Male and Female. The section on Sex in the Player Manual simply states: "Characters can be either male or female." And that's it.

    It's quite interesting that despite our ability to imagine any number of fantasy concepts that have never existed in this world, we still tend to think purely in black and white terms when it comes to genders. There are no D&D races with only one gender, and none with three or more. And it's very rare to see anything other than two genders in any other media as well.

    Star Trek does the occasional show about species which go beyond the classic male and female roles, but that's very much the exception to the rule. Even travelling thousands of times faster than the speed of light, men are men, and women are women. Commander Riker punches people and Dr. Crusher heals their wounds.
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  9. #9
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Srikandi:
    I have to say though that the introduction of Marrim, like that of Anna and Katran, strikes me as somewhat problematic just because it ISN'T problematized by the authors. Here we have a society where women are completely AND WITHOUT COMMENT excluded from public and intellectual life; then these three women step in and take up brand-new roles, also without comment.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    I certainly beg to differ that Ti'ana's involvement in D'ni went without comment . Veovis had quite a following in the Council, as did Aitrus, and they were very divided sides, for many reasons, and Ti'ana's involvement was one of them. Not only was she not D'ni, but she was a woman. If you'll also recall, the very fact that she was a woman came as a surprise to Aitrus when news of her arrival first got out. If anything, the book speaks to the capabilities of women moreso than their failings and lack of participation. Like I said, D'ni wasn't exactly a model society, nor was Terahnee, nor was Garternay.

    I think a lot of the social revolution stuff you mentioned depends a great deal on the society as well as individuals... a society that has been doing things a certain way for hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands of years is very slow to change, even if individuals within the society are willing to move on. Rome is another good example of a society that just went on for so dang long, nobody even remembered why they did half of the things they did as a society. It was just "the way it was done". And like Rome, often times a complete destruction of the civilization is necessary in order to allow such revolutions to occur... it wakes a lot of people up to see what went wrong, and how it might have been avoided, as well as how to fix the mistakes of the past. Doesn't always work quite as well as one hopes, but maybe the D'ni got lucky.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>both men and women have to change their ways of thinking, but that apparently was not an issue for Aitrus, Atrus, or even Gehn (who taught Katran to Write), unlike all their forebears.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Aitrus strikes me as a very open-minded and caring person. He found an equal in Ti'ana. While he may also have found an equal amongst the D'ni, it might have taken him a lot longer since she wouldn't have been dropped so wonderfully into his care . Given his open-ness to interacting with outsiders as equals as well (a view which a certain percentage - though not quite the majority - of the D'ni seemed to hold), I think it's safe to say his mind was wired well enough to bring that acceptance along gender lines as well.

    Gehn is a strane character. He utterly despises his mother for being human, for being compassionate, and obviously for inadvertently bringing about the Fall. Yet he loved his wife, that much is quite clear. His care for Catherine, however, seems far more superficial. Given the limited talent pool on Riven, he may have been desperate enough to take whatever minds he could get. His marriage was more of a symbolic thing than one born of love, and it seemed as though he was simply trying to get back at his son more than anything else.

    Atrus was raised by Ti'ana, so I would imagine he's anything but a sexist. Given the wisdom, strength, and knowledge his grandmother possessed, it's probably safe to say that made an impression on him.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>This suggests that all the women of earlier times were simply wimps; their place was waiting if they just stepped into it. Personally I don't find that credible.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    I don't personally find Taesera to be a wimp. She was very strong-willed, and when she wanted to make a point, by Kerath, she made it. I don't necessarilly find the place of women in the D'ni society to be a product simply of D'ni, but more a product of Garternay, which according to the DRC's notes was just as messed up - if not moreso - than Terahnee was. And since, as you said, it takes a huge revolution and a willingness to change on a societal level in order to effect the kinds of changes you're talking about, the move into the Cavern was, in the long run, more of a continuation of the status quo than a New Beginning, unfortunately. Ri'Neref's dreams died hard, and fast, apparently.

    Given that there were only about 1500 D'ni survivors, plus Eedrah, Marrim, and a handfull of others who actually founded Releeshahn, I think such a social group would have been far more open to change, especially following 70 years of isolation from the old way of doing things, preceeded by a horrible tragedy born of intollerance and hate. That kind of thing sticks with you.

    As I said in my last post, there simply aren't many instances in the story up to this point to really feature women in the D'ni society at large. We had Taesera, Ti'ana, Catherine, Marrim, and Yeesha (as well as Marrim's daughter, Anna... bet she does something in the next novel ), but those were only there because they tied directly to the storyline. There was hardly any mention of religion in any of the three books, which seems to be the area in which women had the most influence, and they were listened to when it came to being priestesses for the Kings... Shomat is a pretty clear example of that.

    Another prominent female in D'ni history: Lalen, the woman who married King Hemelin and discovered the Lost Books of Birenni, which provided the D'ni with a cure to the plague that was destroying them outright.

    I don't mean to be offensive here by saying this, but I think you're reading the involvement of women in D'ni the wrong way. Yes, the D'ni were a horribly class-structured and apparently highly sexist society, but that's not the point that Rand, Richard, Robyn, and Ryan are trying to make. I think the point they're making is the point you're stressing: that women do have a role in society beyond the housewife, and the female figures in the stories they tell do a great deal to advance this. A lot of the politics is left out, yes, but again, these are family stories, not stories of the D'ni in general. Characters are limited to one bloodline (if I'm allowed to use that term..), their families, and their friends and co-workers.

    Were the books (BoT especially) more about the D'ni than about Aitrus and friends, I would imagine that while Aitrus would still have been a character, he would have been a fairly small one, sunk into the middle of a huge party politics system that was as corrupt as anything else in D'ni, struggling to change it, and the book would then have better chronicled the difficulties he and his associates had in getting things passed, which is only hinted at in the novel as it exists today.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Not all games suffer from this problem. (Lara Croft aside, and I think we all know why she doesn't make a good case for the feminist perspective ) In the adventure genre, both Syberia and The Longest Journey have very credible, complex female protagonists; and they're the most acclaimed recent releases.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    As Maztec said, perhaps Rand and Robyn weren't well-aquainted enough with the female perspective to write a successful game around it. Obviously that doesn't mean it can't be done, but that doesn't mean it absolutely must be done to avoid the label of sexism either . Again, the dearth of female characters is a past-tense problem, not a present-tense or future-tense problem as relates to D'ni. Were Rand, Robyn, Richard, and Ryan actually as sexist as you make them out to be in your posts, I doubt Catherine, Ti'ana, Marrim, or Yeesha would figure as prominently as they do in the stories.

    Model societies make for incredibly boring stories in which absolutely nothing happens. Model societies are the things found in the epilogue of a novel or epic. They're dull. Everybody's happy, there's no unrest, and problems are solved diplomatically and peacefully. Yawn. Stereotypes, nasty -isms, and intollerance are the breeding ground for good stories, because there is always a striving to move back to that model society found within them.

    Just food for thought (hope you're up for a 3 course meal )

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  10. #10
    People really have to find better things to do with their time.

    The Myst story/books aren't chauvenistic. That's rediculous.
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