1. #11
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kawartha:
    It's quite interesting that despite our ability to imagine any number of fantasy concepts that have never existed in this world, we still tend to think purely in black and white terms when it comes to genders. There are no D&D races with only one gender, and none with three or more. And it's very rare to see anything other than two genders in any other media as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Just a quick side comment, since it's past my bedtime &lt;chuckle&gt;. Include books in "other media" and I wouldn't call it "rare".

    FREE PHIL HENDERSON!
    Share this post

  2. #12
    Srikandi's Avatar Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    1,616
    Lest anyone get the wrong impression, I'm a fan of the series and of Uru, and I'm not angry... in fact, I'm happy that people are thinking about these things.

    I certainly agree with Kawartha's comment about the importance of the Stranger and their completely gender-free existence. That's why I never thought about this issue at all relative to this series, until I played Uru and had to choose an avatar.

    Thanks for the reminder about Riven -- it's a long time since I played it. My comments are based primarily on the books, though.

    Tesera is mentioned as asserting her opinion exactly once, and it's commented on as remarkable.

    Aitrus was surprised to find that the captured surface-dweller was a woman -- exactly! Why would that be surprising? Both Atrus and Catherine were surprised to find out that there were female Relyimah -- why? In both cases, it seems to me to be the assumption that an unidentified human(oid) is male until proven otherwise. This assumption is prevalent throughout the books -- not just in the voices of the characters, but also in the narrator's voice... which is what worries me about the authors.

    As for Alahmat's remarks about model societies making bad stories, I agree... but the gender inequity in both D'ni and Terahnee societies is not treated as a problem. A reader like me sees this as problematic, but neither the characters nor the narrators do. (By being both female and Ahrotahntee, Anna's problem neatly sidesteps the issue.) THAT is what bothers me.

    Yes, it's implicit through the involvement of Catherine, Marrim and her student Assem, that a new direction is coming... but it isn't stated as a goal for a new society.

    I get the distinct feeling with Uru that somebody had raised some of these issues, and a conscious effort has been made to retroactively insert the woman into the picture. That explains the journals, the Priestesses, and so on. No complaint here -- that's progress.

    I just hope that there are both male and female Bahro! (Unless we adopt Maztec's suggestion and have three or more kinds...)

    [This message was edited by Srikandi on Fri December 19 2003 at 10:59 PM.]
    Share this post

  3. #13
    Share this post

  4. #14
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Srikandi:
    Aitrus was surprised to find that the captured surface-dweller was a woman -- exactly! Why would that be surprising? Both Atrus and Catherine were surprised to find out that there were female Relyimah -- why? In both cases, it seems to me to be the assumption that an unidentified human(oid) is male until proven otherwise.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    All things considered, I think it's a natural tendency to identify others with one's own self until more specifics are known about them. I know several women who are likely to ask "who's she" instead of "who's he" when a gender-inspecific name is mentioned, while men are more likely to use the male pronoun. It's just the way our minds work, and the D'ni are decidely not all that different from us in many ways.

    That said, Atrus and Catherine never thought there were female relyimah because they hadn't seen any... all of the relyimah they had seen were males. Even at the meeting in the amphitheatre, they were all males IIRC. Thus it's not a fault of Atrus and Catherine for not supposing there were women, but simply a lack of sufficient information on their part to actually make the assumption in the first place. If I show up in a school and the first five classrooms I walk into are all-girl classes, I've no reason to assume that the sixth is going to have a boy in it.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As for Alahmat's remarks about model societies making bad stories, I agree... but the gender inequity in both D'ni and Terahnee societies is not treated as a problem.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Perhaps because the people in the society never viewed it as a problem. I think Ti'ana, Catherine, Yeesha, and Marrim have changed that opinion.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Yes, it's implicit through the involvement of Catherine, Marrim and her student Assem, that a new direction is coming... but it isn't stated as a goal for a new society. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Well, given everything the new D'ni have seen Catherine and Marrim do, I don't think they could successfully block women out on the grounds that they're somehow not capable. And again, you're deriving the goals, morays, customs, and outlook of an entire civilization based on the limited perspective inherent in the telling of a personal story about a guy, his wife, and his grandparents before him. Assumptions are generally bad things to make in this fandom, as they have a tendency to be based on extrapolations of incomplete or wholly inaccurate material.

    All of that said, if anybody in the novel-writing department can be accused of portraying the narrator's voice in a sexist manner, it would be the guy who wrote the actual narrative: David Wingrove, who is not associated with Cyan in any way.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I get the distinct feeling with Uru that somebody had raised some of these issues, and a conscious effort has been made to retroactively insert the woman into the picture. That explains the journals, the Priestesses, and so on. No complaint here -- that's progress.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    I, on the other hand, get the distinct feeling that the society has been developed in this structure, with these characters and this sort of gender distribution from day 1, and that this is the first actual opportunity for this information to actually be revealed in any sort of not-just-putting-it-somewhere-online-because-we-have-nothing-better-to-do kind of way.

    I also think you're reading way too far into this whole thing, but you could always just accuse me of being a guy .

    ----------
    Alahmnat
    Guild of Archivists, DPWR.NET
    Uru Forum Moderator, Community Assistant
    Share this post

  5. #15
    maztec's Avatar Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    3,166
    Rocky, go away, you don't have to read this thread or any other thread you don't care about. You're wasting your time here.

    Srikandi, we each find that which we seek
    Share this post

  6. #16
    Here are some of the complaints I've seen whenever a male author tries to write female characters:
    1. They're just used as props
    2. They're really bossy which obviously shows the author's dislike for women
    3. They make guys fall in love with them and ruin perfectly good characters
    4. All they do is support their husbands
    5. They're perfect and lack dimension

    Here are my responses to the complaints.
    1&gt; there are several males that are used as props and yet no-one comments on them
    2&gt; There are plenty of bossy males and no-one comments on them
    3&gt; You can say the guys could make the females fall in love with them and ruin the perfectly good female characters. But no-one ever does.
    4&gt; All males do is support their wives
    5&gt; You were complaining before because they weren't perfect (see point 2).

    That isn't directed at anyone here (except for one or two points but I've seen the same points be raised for other novels), but directed at complaints on other boards I've seen. Given this no-win situation for male authors, a lot of male authors just opt to write females in their novels as little as possible. And can you really blame them?

    Also. Anne McCathery often writes novels that predominantly have females. Yet do people complain about these because they're sexist to males? Of course not. And that's something that ticks me off. Females are allowed to complain about novels not having enough females in the book, yet if a male did the same thing about males, they'd be laughed at. Now that's sexism. (Again, not directed at Srikandi or anyone else here, it's just a personal pet peeve of mine ).

    NOW I'll actually respond to the posts in this thread

    NOTE: Everything below (and some of what I said above) is ONLY MY OPINION. If you disagree with me that's fine But please don't get offended by my OPINION.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Srikandi wrote:
    We can view this problem on two levels: one, the sexism of D'ni society, which is easy to document from the books; two, the sexism of the books' authors and indeed the creators of the series, which is surely going to be more contentious but in my opinion is just as evident.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I agree with point 1 but disagree with point 2. See above why I disagree with it I'll also post why I disagree with it below when I discuss how I see the females being portrayed

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Srikandi wrote:
    D'ni society seems to almost completely exclude women from public life.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>With the exception of prophetesses this is correct

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Srikandi wrote:
    there have been throughout history notable queens, empresses, and legendary woman warriors.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>But these are the exceptions to the rule. The myst series also has the exceptions (you pointed them out yourself).

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Srikandi wrote:
    [Tasera] has no personality, serving merely as a nurturing and supportive presence for her family<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I disagree with the personality comment, but I'll point out something before I do. "Khalis has no personality, serving merely as a nurturing and supportive presence for his family." I'll also point out I had to look up Khalis' name. I didn't have to look up Tasera's As I said, I disagree with the comment that Tasera has no personality. It is evident Tasera does not like Anna (I like using birth names ), however it isn't ever explicitly stated. Instead it's implied. This shows that the author's realise characters don't need to have every personality trait and opinion explicitly stated. Tasera also goes against her personal opinion of Anna and stands up for her morals.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Srikandi wrote:
    Apparently the same is true in the "Utopian" Terahnee society -- even among the upper classes, whose way of life Atrus so admires before he learns of the existence of the Unseen. Once more, all public power apparently rests solely in the hands of the men, and it doesn't occur to Atrus (or Catherine or Marrim) that this might not be so ideal after all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Marrim is from a society where females aren't treated equally, so she would see this as the norm. Not enough is known about Riven society to be able to tell whether or not it had sexism. HOWEVER Gehn did come in and correct the sexism in Riven. Katran is also very suspicious of Terahnee society.

    Now the more difficult person is Atrus. I believe he understood the sexism that D'ni society had. So he is going to have to fight sexism whether it be from the Terahnee or the D'ni.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Srikandi wrote:
    And in the other "book worlds" the same situation seems to hold. If a mention is made of "elders", for instance, it turns out (surprise) that the elders are all male.......the one place where the imagination of their creators completely fails is in imagining a culture where women play more than a support role.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Now, now. Don't need to be sarcastic Look at ancient Terran cultures. Equality NEVER exists. The only POSSIBLE exception are the Minoans, and they didn't have equality. One sex was the dominant sex (depends who you listen to as to which sex was the dominant one). So if Terran cultures have ineqaulity time and again with the males always being dominant. It's realistic to assume it would be the same throughout all human cultures (regardless of the universe they're from).

    However the Narayani Collective believe that Narayan culture had equality (although Exile wasn't created by Cyan). You can go there to find out the evidence supporting this idea

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Srikandi wrote:
    What struck me immediately is that the patriarchal characteristic of all the cultures mentioned in the books -- not just the D'ni -- is treated by the authors as unremarkable, as though this characteristic were a necessary and inevitable characteristic of not just our planet, but all imaginable humanoid cultures<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Can you explain to me what gave you this impression? I ask because I didn't get that impression. The books were also always told in first person perspective, so everything we see is through the eyes of a character. I can't see how there is room for the author's to make commentary

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Srikandi wrote:
    This state of affairs is not stated in the introduction to these societies<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually, I disagree. In Book of Ti'ana it wouldn't have made sense to comment on it except for when Anna encountered it, as it would have been the norm for anyone else. And in Veovis' Korfah V'ja ceremony Aitrus tells Anna that she has to wait behind with Tasera when Atrus goes and does male-stuff. Anna seems confused and put out by this (as it's her first encounter with sexism in D'ni society). It is also hinted at before this that the society is sexist.

    Also. With Averonese society, the sexism is established early on and Marrim resents it and tries to go against it.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Srikandi wrote:
    They enter D'ni society and immediately take on roles that have never been permitted to women, even writing Books. Here we have to ask: since both women are appalled by the social injustices they witness, why is neither appalled by the concomitant gender inequity?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Your forgetting the culture Anna came from. She most likely came from the American that was around 200 years ago. Gender equality just didn't exist back then in American society. Katran on the otherhand has her first encounter with Gehn and he establishes a gender-equal society on Riven. Then in Book of D'ni she is obeyed by the D'ni because of her association with Atrus, so she wouldn't see much equality. However with Averonese society, we don't know how much the Elders obeyed Katran. But then again, she appeared from thin air, it'd be quite easy to imagine they would make an exception for her. And Katran and Atrus promise not to make a lasting impact on Averonese society (a promise they can't keep) so Katran is unable to change the gender inequality.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Srikanda wrote:
    Again, like the series' authors, they seem content to be excpetions and happily accept a world in which their sisters never taste their freedom and power.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If this is true, they are no different from Hatshepsut, the Egyptian emperor and the countless political Roman women.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Srikanda wrote:
    It also seems to me that both these women are not really better off than Tasera in terms of having a personality. They are idealized: both are beautiful, strong, intelligent, wise, and of course, nurturing as well, totally devoted to their husbands and children.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Same thing can be said about Kahlis or Veovis' father or Ri'Neref or Ahlsender, etc, etc. Yes, the males are fleshed out more in the novels, but I said above the reasons for that. No matter what male author's do concerning females, they WILL be criticized. Katran is also quite heavily fleshed out. First she is strong and does not like Atrus, then she falls for him so she fixes the problem with the help of Anna. If Atrus solved these problems all by himself the authors would be critized as females aren't allowed to do anything but look pretty. Now that the author's had females fix the problem, they're critized for having the females be perfect. If the authors had had the females try to fix the situation and fail they'd be critized as showing females as being inept.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Srikandi wrote:
    Neither has a single fault, and in fact, they are pretty much indistinguishable from each other in terms of personality (compared to Aitrus, Gehn, and Atrus, who each have inner conflicts and some complexity).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I have trouble distinguishing the difference between Aitrus and Atrus. In fact, I can't.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Srikandi wrote:
    he only other female we are exposed to among all the characters in the Cavern soap opera is Marie Sutherland<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is Cyan portraying the dig as realistic. Males do dominate archaeology.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Srikandi wrote:
    The most invisible of the DRC Council.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Really? I thought she is MUCH more visible then Engberg. She's constantly organizing competitions, and posts a fair bit on the DRC forums.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Srikandi wrote:
    Marrim is evidence of some progress, yes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I like that. Anything that doesn't show the author's as sexist is labelled as progress I don't see Marrim as being any different from say, Anna. To me, saying Marrim is progress shows to me, you had a pre-existing opinion (or at least a tendancy to form this opinion) that your going about proving. Of course, the exact same can be said about me

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Srikandi wrote:
    Here we have a society where women are completely AND WITHOUT COMMENT excluded from public and intellectual life; then these three women step in and take up brand-new roles, also without comment.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Are you talking about Averonese society? If so, it IS commented upon. Marrim describes herself as "doing a man's job" and is expected to revert to her old role once Atrus leaves. That is the most probably reason it's overlooked by the Elders.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Srikandi wrote:
    apparently was not an issue for Aitrus, Atrus, or even Gehn (who taught Katran to Write), unlike all their forebears.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Gehn was young when D'ni fell so he probably wasn't as aware of the sexism. He was also raised by Anna so that probably would have helped de-condition him (Gehn didn't see Anna as a female but as an book-worlder).

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Srikandi wrote:
    Aitrus was surprised to find that the captured surface-dweller was a woman -- exactly! Why would that be surprising?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Because of the sexism in D'ni culture. I think you'll be hard pressed to find someone who says D'ni culture isn't sexist

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Srikandi wrote:
    Both Atrus and Catherine were surprised to find out that there were female Relyimah -- why?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Because they had only encountered male Relyimah

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Srikandi wrote:
    the gender inequity in both D'ni and Terahnee societies is not treated as a problem.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Who would treat it as a problem? I think it may be somewhat of a problem in Book of Marrim (Cyan's first attempt at telling a novel predominantly from a female perspective. Also the first book to not be written by Wingrove. Interesting ). But no-one was in a situation to see anything wrong with the sexism, except Katran. And she was too busy with the resotration to bother with fixing D'ni culture, and she had several reservations about Terahnee as it is. Although I doubt she is surprised as she immediately believed the D'ni and Terahnee to be related.

    You know that Uru is described as being a game targetted for females. The ridiculous reason being that the females option is the first sex shown in the gender options in the avatar creation menu. Of course the genders being in alphabetical order isn't possible No matter what game creators and authors do. If females are concerend, someone will read into it.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>if they were a university department, they'd be looking at a lawsuit if they didn't make some serious efforts to promote more women.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is unrelated to Cyan's games and books. But I believe strongly AGAINST an organization promoting positions for a particular sex or a particular race. [/side note]

    An interesting thread Srikandi Thanks for starting it While I disagree with half your message (and I hope I didn't offend you by saying my opinion) it was still a very interesting read and made me think fairly hard on the issue
    Share this post

  7. #17
    Sirkandi I do agree.
    Share this post

  8. #18
    o rocky noticed ur post. The best way I can explain it is by saying it's just an entertainment. Althought i dont have time to read these books eather, I would rather play differant games, but we are all differant. heh sry if that was stupid, if it is dont reply to this at all .
    Share this post

  9. #19
    The only opinion I have on this subject is if everyone were capable of emphathizing with everyone else, this old world would get boring pretty quickly.

    I don't even pretend to understand all there is about a another woman, much less understand all there is about any man.

    Pa'lua (in Cavern)
    Share this post

  10. #20
    Sorry I got in on this thread so late. I am very interested in hearing about the voices of "others" on the surface, and I think starting this conversation will add a tremendous amount of depth to life in the cavern.

    OOCly, I think the authors had the best intentions in their portrayal of women, but portrayed them from the perspective of an outsider. I certainly can't blame them for it, but I hope that discussions like this will make the voices of women more heard.

    ICly, the D'ni, for all their advancements were basically a medieval society bent on keeping power concentrated in a very limited class, and using others for their own benefit. It is sad and strange that they ended up this way, given the beliefs of Ri'neref.

    I am also very interested in what will happen with the Least. In my mind, they stand for all the marginalized groups. Will they be treated with respect or be brushed off and eliminated?

    Thanks for starting this thread Srikandi! Very well done.

    ________________________
    : Kahlu :: KI#00645864 :
    Share this post