1. #1
    Hi all,

    I don't know much about this but here's what I did.

    I ran a router tracer "tracert" in dos and found that I needed to pass 47 routers to reach Yahoo.com. I had similar results for other common sites such as Google.com. I took the IP of Yahoo and put it directly in the browser but it wouldn't open. With the IP from Google my browser opened the google site incredibly fast but when I clicked on images, then the keyword "flag" but the results page was unavailable.

    Normally, the results page from Google/images opens but very slowly, and often not 100%. Since I live in China I assume the sites that don't open or open patially are suffering from some sort of security block. Three years ago China bragged about it's 30,000 internet police.

    I would like to learn more about this and get to sites that are unnecessarily blocked. Any advice, other than "leave China"?

    BTW, I ran a ping test and had an average of 422.

    Also, let's not turn this into some sort of political thread.

    Fritz
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  2. #2
    Well, what you have first to understand, is that you are usually not seeing the sites directly.

    You are seeing an internet image through your ISP proxies. To allow faster internet access, proxies keep an image of most requested internet pages, and what you access is this image.

    Pages more often consulted by all customers of your ISP are refreshed more often, and they show faster. If you are actually asking for something nobody ever ask to your ISP, loading time will be looooooong, and you can ever get 404 messages, or sometime, messages saying that you are not allowed to see that page.

    This is the basics.

    After that, you have more complicated issues about how the proxies actually share information (as they do....). But in fact, you are almost never allowed direct access to the sites. And it work like that not only in China, but also in Europe, and in the US...
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  3. #3
    Originally posted by Hoarmurath:
    Well, what you have first to understand, is that you are usually not seeing the sites directly.

    You are seeing an internet image through your ISP proxies. To allow faster internet access, proxies keep an image of most requested internet pages, and what you access is this image.

    Pages more often consulted by all customers of your ISP are refreshed more often, and they show faster. If you are actually asking for something nobody ever ask to your ISP, loading time will be looooooong, and you can ever get 404 messages, or sometime, messages saying that you are not allowed to see that page.

    This is the basics.

    After that, you have more complicated issues about how the proxies actually share information (as they do....). But in fact, you are almost never allowed direct access to the sites. And it work like that not only in China, but also in Europe, and in the US...
    That seems logical and even make sense. Thx Hoarmurath.

    Fritz
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  4. #4
    Cajun76's Avatar Senior Member
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    Do you use Firefox? I seem to remember a way to get into the nuts and bolts of Firefox, and change how many traces? are sent out when you request a page or d/l something. I set it a long time ago, but that was several versions back, so it may be reset. The way to access it was through the address bar, but I don't remember what it was. It was supposed to speed up page loading. I can do a search when I get home, I may have a bookmark about it.
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  5. #5
    B16Enk's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally posted by Hoarmurath:
    Well, what you have first to understand, is that you are usually not seeing the sites directly.

    You are seeing an internet image through your ISP proxies. To allow faster internet access, proxies keep an image of most requested internet pages, and what you access is this image.

    Pages more often consulted by all customers of your ISP are refreshed more often, and they show faster. If you are actually asking for something nobody ever ask to your ISP, loading time will be looooooong, and you can ever get 404 messages, or sometime, messages saying that you are not allowed to see that page.

    This is the basics.

    After that, you have more complicated issues about how the proxies actually share information (as they do....). But in fact, you are almost never allowed direct access to the sites. And it work like that not only in China, but also in Europe, and in the US...
    But for that to work your proxy needs to be configured in your browser....

    Otherwise a request for a site, like yahoo.com, consists firstly of your PC requesting the IP address of 'yahoo.com' from your configured DNS server.
    Once it has the IP address your PC then requests a route to the IP address via your router, which in turn asks it's neighbouring routers if they have a route. The first to respond that they have will then forward your requests to the host (they to will consult their neighbours until one is found with the address in it's routing table).

    Some countries employ IP filtering to prevent certain sites from being addressed, this will be by way of 'interim routers' they control directly (or indirectly if the admins have a reason to comply ) and can result in unusually complex multi-hop routes.

    Additionally it may be that the routers are configured to use specific routes for economic or other reasons. This would be by way of specifying the more direct routes are 'administratively' more costly (a feature of the routing protocols) for certain or all hosts. This allows for bandwidth reservation for those in control
    It can also be used to frustrate (HR departments can often be victims of this )
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  6. #6
    Originally posted by B16Enk:

    But for that to work your proxy needs to be configured in your browser....

    No, for it to work that way, it only need to have you connected through a proxy. And all ISP use them. You just can't bypass them, all you'll got is having the proxy eventually adress a request to the original address for an updated image of the web page, but direct access is impossible. It work the same with proxies used in most business offices for internet access. You just can't bypass them, except if you actually hack them.
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  7. #7
    B16Enk's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally posted by Hoarmurath:

    No, for it to work that way, it only need to have you connected through a proxy. And all ISP use them. You just can't bypass them, all you'll got is having the proxy eventually adress a request to the original address for an updated image of the web page, but direct access is impossible. It work the same with proxies used in most business offices for internet access. You just can't bypass them, except if you actually hack them.

    My ISP for example (demon.net in the UK) offers a proxy but this needs to be configured in the connections tab in IE/Firefox/pick your browser. And is entirely voluntary due to the possibility of 'stale' pages (Ctrl + f5 should force the proxy to update but is inconvenient) and over-loaded proxies that 'slow a connection down'.
    They do not use interception proxies as some ISPs (as you correctly state) do to preserve their own backbone bandwidth (you didn't think it was for the customer did you?! ).

    Also some ISPs modify IE as part of the installation package and 'inject' the proxy for you (but this can be altered).

    Granted there are some ISPs (and I would avoid them personally)such as BT in the UK who require the use of a proxy, otherwise you cannot browse. This can still be seen in your browser.

    There are tools to determine if you are working via a proxy:
    http://www.all-nettools.com/pr.htm (see Proxy Test).
    and
    http://www.broadband-help.com/cm_diagnose.asp?init=1 (see proxy name (r-dns)).

    If it is an interception proxy youre stuck, if it is configured in the browser you can try disabling it, but if the port 80/8080 traffic is blocked then again youre stuck.
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  8. #8
    OK, from all-nettools, I got this:

    61.149.25.84

    61.148.0.0 - 61.149.255.255
    CNCGROUP Beijing province network
    China Network Communications Group Corporation
    No.156,Fu-Xing-Men-Nei Street,
    Beijing 100031


    CNCGroup Hostmaster
    abuse@cnc-noc.net
    No.156,Fu-Xing-Men-Nei Street,
    Beijing,100031,P.R.China
    +86-10-82993155
    +86-10-82993102


    sun ying
    Beijing Telecommunication Administration
    TaiPingHu DongLi 18, Xicheng District
    Beijing 100031
    +86-10-66198941
    +86-10-68511003
    suny@publicf.bta.net.cn

    What does it mean?

    Fritz
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  9. #9
    Can't open the second link....., go figure.

    BTW, when I'm in Germany and want to open sites, it's much faster and much easier then here. Also, Chinese sites open very quickly in China, but anything outside, well, it's usually slow or doesn't open.

    Fritz
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