1. #1
    but they outnumbered the USAF guys by 3 to 1. I saw this in the current issue of combat aircraft magazine and bought the thign despite its cost. The main relation to our forum here is, I think, the fact that the article author is making the same mistake, along with alot of other pundits, of thinking that the days of dogfighting are over (as has been said since jets came along and has been repeatedly proven wrong).

    It described excercise "cope India" in which the indian AF requested some scenarios to work out with thier new SU-30s, which have vectored thrust engines. There was no simulation of BVR kills, which would be kinda redundatn since both planes are about equal in that regard (aim-120 vs AA-12). the SUs were armed with AA-11 archer and the F15s with AIM-9X, and both had new helmet mounted cueing systems for off boresight targeting.

    It seems that the only actual conclusions tthat were made are that it is not good to be outnumbered by pilots that are equal to your own (at least) and flying equipment that is at least as good.

    It does seem that the F-22 is pretty badly needed though, since the USAF has always trained to fight outnumbered at least 3 to 1, per the odds with the warsaw pact in the past.
    The govt only wants 179 planes, but the AF is insistant that it needs at least 300. I tend to agree with the USAF leadership. It seems silly to build less than 300 of any tactical aircraft.

    I was also amazed that the author continues to make the incredibly shortsighted mistake of thinking thta close in air combat training isnt needed anymore due to missles blah blah.....

    Ive heard that nonsense before. ITs obvious that the closing speeds of modern fighters mean that only the opening salvos will be a long range, and they will close to gun and close in missle range (sidewinders/archers etc) in a couple of min.

    There were even those "thinkers" in the late 30s who said that the G forces would be too great for there to be dogfighting like there was in WW1. Yeah, right.

    I guess those who fail to remember the past are certainly condemned to repeat it.

    Just thought Id put this out for any insights from you guys.......
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  2. #2
    <span class="ev_code_RED">Indian SU-30s best US F-15s</span>

    And the F-15 is how old compared to the Su-30?

    Stupidest thing I've heard in some time. Things others go through for publicity ratings. LOOK WE BESTED F-15s!!!!
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  3. #3
    The days of dogfighting were never.

    Shocking but true.

    What is it 80-90% of kills you never see the guy who gets you!

    Get a kill - run a away.

    That's it. No dogfight.
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  4. #4
    yeah, the 15, even updated, is alot older than the su-30. But it should be remembered tah the F-15s were outnumbered 3 to 1......I bet it could still hold its own pretty well with better odds.

    While boom and zoom is the usual way many get it, if you dont hagve the training for close in combat (and that includes situational awareness), you get clobbered (besides, it is considered close in combat). It happened in Vietnam until the navy and air force started teaching the art of dogfighting again. If you dont know how to hassle in a furball, yer gonna get waxed. IN modern jet combat, close in fights are how the vast majority of the kills occur....from vietnam to the mideast, to now. the main reason many of the kills in the 91 gulf war were BVR is because most of the iraqi AF was running away.

    The nature of modern jet combat eliminates the surprise factor....radar and radar warning, AWACS, etc. once a fight starts at long range,
    the element of surprise is gone, and its not long before your are eyeball to eyeball in a turning fight. Such performance is still high on the designers list of priorities, but to advocate that there is no need for such training and equiping is not realistic.

    Also, what happens when counter measures and tactics are discovered for such missles like Aim-20 and AA-12?

    Several Iraqi pilots over the yrs have avoided destruction from AMRAAMS by using the correct tacticts and manuvering properly. Some, not all, not even most. Of course, they are, as usual, heading away or at least not actively engaging.

    And only recently have more details on the IRan-Iraq war come to light about large dogfights, and how the F-14 literally vanquished its oponents in the close combat arena when missles ran short.

    My point is that air combat can never be delegated to missles or computers...its been done repeatedly, and always fails.

    I think the RAF needs to find the dough to buy the 27mm Mauser guns for its Typhoons, and our F-15s need to be replaced in the aircombat role.

    The excecise was notable because its the first time the F-15 was bested on such a consistant scale...by anyone wiht any equipment. Time to re-equip I think....
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  5. #5
    Badsight.'s Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally posted by Enforcer572005:
    The main relation to our forum here is, I think, the fact that the article author is making the same mistake, along with alot of other pundits, of thinking that the days of dogfighting are over
    there is a sim forum for this . .. . & it isnt IL2

    much about that exercise is knowen - but there is still stuff that isnt , if you are thinking that the F22 Raptor was under threat but is now in Service - you are on the right track

    DFing wasnt the way conflict panned out in Kosovo , or the first Gulf War

    days of DFing are over

    even a rusting mig-21 fitted with HOBS & HEATERS is a dangerous threat
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  6. #6
    Badsight.'s Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally posted by _VR_ScorpionWorm:

    And the F-15 is how old compared to the Su-30?
    US F-15s are brand new updated & re-fitted with the latest that the USAAF standardises

    dont go bringing up old design arguments

    *cough*SU30isactuallya30yearoldSU27*cough*
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  7. #7
    Well 2 things...

    1. I believe the USAF did hold back some of their tactics and they held back a bit (I read something about this earlier).

    2. The capabilities of the F 22 are wayyy beyond that of the F-15 so I wouldn't worry.

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Enforcer572005:

    It does seem that the F-22 is pretty badly needed though, since the USAF has always trained to fight outnumbered at least 3 to 1, per the odds with the warsaw pact in the past.
    The govt only wants 179 planes, but the AF is insistant that it needs at least 300. I tend to agree with the USAF leadership. It seems silly to build less than 300 of any tactical aircraft.
    QUOTE]


    Well first theres no massive threat or worldwide arms race going on like the immediate years to World War Two and the Cold War. No new enemy that requires a massive armada of aircraft. Second at something like $90 million a pop there not exactly a dime a dozen. I'm surprised they built the 22 in the first place. I mean with the deficit spiraling, and the trillions going into Iraq, the war on drugs, education, and medicare, the US isn't exactly doing great financially.
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  8. #8
    dogfighting for the future will be done with satellites and drones. Why on earth would you need vector thrust in a piloted plane. That is military thinking stuck in in "Mig Alley" era. Great for Lockheed. Days is over.
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  9. #9
    PBNA-Boosher's Avatar Senior Member
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    Face it guys, the USAF is falling behind and everyone knows it. THey better step up their research and get going, or we'll be caught with another (modern) Seversky P-35 against Japanese Zeroes.
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  10. #10
    Nah, don't exaggerate ! The F-22 will turn any Su-30 into a smoking hole in the ground.
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