Member
i knew you'd be nutral in this "red" i just like to inform those who are misinformed/ uninformed
and an add-on to the post
to me
anyone serving under the Sec of the army is in the army
Anyone takeing orders from the sec of the Airforce is in the Airforce
so with that
then it seems to me because the others work that way anyone that is under the sec of the Navy is in the navy
( as VV pointed out("Marines are a componect of the Navy"))
be in mind this statement excules the civilan secrarties and "what not" under them, if their are any at all.
Member
I understand your point of view.Originally posted by P47ace:
i knew you'd be nutral in this "red" i just like to inform those who are misinformed/ uninformed
and an add-on to the post
to me
anyone serving under the Sec of the army is in the army
Anyone takeing orders from the sec of the Airforce is in the Airforce
so with that
then it seems to me because the others work that way anyone that is under the sec of the Navy is in the navy
( as VV pointed out("Marines are a componect of the Navy"))
be in mind this statement excules the civilan secrarties and "what not" under them, if their are any at all.
I did not however state that the US Marines are a component of the US Navy, they are not.
In the end it depends on point of view and especially on the definition of military service branch used.
We will probably have to agree to disagree.
I tend to agree with the standpoint of the US Department of Defense on this issue, here is one of their websites that supplies the current governmental view on US military service branches.
http://www.todaysmilitary.com/service-branches
“Military Service Branches
The U.S. Military consists of five active-duty Services and their respective Guard and Reserve units. All branches are equal parts of the United States Uniformed Services, headed by the President as Commander-in-Chief. The Army, Marine Corps, Navy and Air Force fall under the jurisdiction of the Department of Defense (DoD). The Coast Guard reports to the Department of Homeland Security during peacetime and to the DoD (by way of the Navy) during wartime.”
For something to be counted as a separate MILITARY service branch they must have their own specialised funding, uniform, rank structure, chain of command, training, equipment etc. etc.
The name of the civilian governmental department that provides the funds and to whom a military service branch is ultimately accountable is not the defining issue when it comes to determining whether or not the USMC is a separate MILITARY service branch. The Department of the Navy is not a military service branch, it is only the name of a civilian governmental department.
The USMC and the US Navy have their own separate and distinct military Chain of Command - the civilian Secretary of the Navy technically oversees the two, but the military branch US Navy is headed by the Chief of Naval Operations, while the US Marine Corps military branch is commanded by the Commandant of the Marine Corps. So the overall MILITARY commander of the USMC ultimately reports to a civilian government official, not to the overall MILITARY commander of the USN. In the field the USMC is not under USN command however and does not even have to operate with the USN at all, like in Iraq for instance.
The USMC has its own rank structure, uniform, training facilities, chain of command etc. etc. So from the standpoint of military service branch definition, it is a separate MILITARY service branch of the US Armed Forces. Administratively speaking however it is financed and administered by a civilian governmental Department still called “Navy”, this might change eventually. There are US politicians that want to have the name of the Department changed to "Navy and Marine Corps".
http://www.marinecause.com/201...-advances-in-senate/
(note: see Joseph R. Craig (USMC retired) commentary at the end of the page linked)
Even R. Lee Ermey has been asked to join in the effort –the “gunny” of Full Metal Jacket.
http://www.rleeermey.com/
http://www.marinecause.com/201...-navy-moves-forward/
Reportedly a record 92% of the House members sponsored the bill in April 2010 to change the name of the Department of the Navy. But even if that never happens the USMC - in its present form - still constitutes a separate US military service branch according to the current US Department of Defense, in other words the current US Government.
Banned
Member
"The United States Marine Corps (USMC) is a branch of the United States Armed Forces responsible for providing power projection from the sea, using the mobility of the United States Navy to deliver combined-arms task forces rapidly. It is one of seven uniformed services of the United States. In the civilian leadership structure of the United States military, the Marine Corps is a component of the United States Department of the Navy, often working closely with U.S. naval forces for training, transportation, and logistic purposes; however, in the military leadership structure the Marine Corps is a separate branch."Originally posted by VVidar:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by P47ace:
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
you lie, cause you did say it was a componet
and of course if you ask any Marine they are going say that the Marines are a separte service
But to end this civily, i will agree to dissagree
thank you for a good debate
Member
"The United States Marine Corps (USMC) is a branch of the United States Armed Forces responsible for providing power projection from the sea, using the mobility of the United States Navy to deliver combined-arms task forces rapidly. It is one of seven uniformed services of the United States. In the civilian leadership structure of the United States military, the Marine Corps is a component of the United States Department of the Navy, often working closely with U.S. naval forces for training, transportation, and logistic purposes; however, in the military leadership structure the Marine Corps is a separate branch."Originally posted by P47ace:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VVidar:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by P47ace:
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
you lie, cause you did say it was a componet
and of course if you ask any Marine they are going say that the Marines are a separte service
But to end this civily, i will agree to dissagree
thank you for a good debate </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Interesting discussion on this subject, a pity to end it with you falsely accusing me of lying.
In short: you are mixing up different facts and different issues.
To set the record straight let us go back to how this whole discussion started a few posts back: I stated that the Waffen SS and the USMC are (or were in the case of the Waffen SS) effectively the fourth military service combat branch of their respective national Armed Forces. So I compared the USMC and Waffen SS on the basis of them effectively being military service combat branches of their respective national Armed Forces.
Then you stated that you believe that the USMC is not a separate military branch but that there are nothing more than the Navy’s infantry. Which I disproved in my subsequent posts, supported via various quotes even up to the US DoD governmental website http://www.todaysmilitary.com/service-branches
To be sure, the “component” quote that you printed in bold above is actually a quote from Wikipedia, it is NOT something I wrote myself, although this is really irrelevant when it comes to the difference between a civilian governmental department and a military service branch. There is a big difference between a military service combat branch and a civilian governmental department (or ministry), they are different entities. This difference is at the core of your accusation of lying.
1. The “Department of the Navy” IS NOT THE SAME ENTITY as the “US Navy”. The former is a civilian governmental department, the latter a military service combat branch.
2. The USMC is a separate military service combat branch of the USA Armed Forces, as I stated in my first and subsequent posts on this subject in this thread.
3. The “US Navy” (USN) is a separate military service combat branch of the USA Armed Forces. The “US Navy” is however NOT the same entity as the “Department of the Navy”.
4. The USMC is NOT a part of the “US Navy” (USN), these are actually two separate military service combat branches of the US Armed Forces. This I have stated in my posts in this thread. I have NEVER stated that the USMC is a component of the “US Navy”, neither by external quote or otherwise.
5. The USMC military service combat branch administratively falls under the “Department of the Navy” which is a civilian governmental department and NOT A MILITARY SERVICE BRANCH.
6. The USMC and “US Navy” military service combat branches are administratively BOTH components of the civilian governmental department called “Department of the Navy”. To be sure: the "Department of the Navy" =/= "US Navy".
In my posts I have stated the above facts and any quotes from me from the Wikipedia and Todaysmilitary websites confirm these facts, so no lying there.
Member
i can't believe you are going to bring this back up when i was going to leave it.
ok lets get something strait
if you write/type it, that means you believe, and you say it to be true
Unless it is odvious sarcasum
also the department of the navy is part of the command structure, so they are part of the military
also the high command of the Department of the Navy are ether currently in service or or are Ex-service men
i believe you misunderstood my comment on the secrtaries,
i ment the secrataries that sit outside their offices buzz people in, take phone calls and take notes during meetings, i believe "some" of "those" people are civilans and do not fall under my pervious statment
Member
Flogging a dead horse…
Making a mountain out of a molehill…
I agree, let us get something straight: your false accusation of lying warrants a further response.Originally posted by P47ace:
i can't believe you are going to bring this back up when i was going to leave it.
ok lets get something strait
I repeat: I did not state that the US Marines are a component of the US Navy, they are not. Even the Wikipedia quote you refer to does not state that. The USMC is a component of the US “Department of the Navy”, which is something different.Originally posted by P47ace:
you lie, cause you did say it was a componet
No lie there.
Quotes can be used for many reasons, not just the two you mentioned above. In this case the Wikipedia quote you focus on actually merely underlines what I stated before IF read and understood FULLY.Originally posted by P47ace:
if you write/type it, that means you believe, and you say it to be true
Unless it is odvious sarcasum
The Wikipedia quote you are referring to above only confirms what I have stated IF you carefully read ALL of it. The Wikipedia quote states that in the civilian leadership structure of the US Armed Forces the USMC is a component of the “Department of the Navy” AND that the USMC is a separate military service branch in the military leadership structure.
This is simply not true. The overall command of the US Armed Forces ultimately rests in the hands of the civilian government, not in the hands of the military high command. The civilian government by law is not part of the military however.Originally posted by P47ace:
also the department of the navy is part of the command structure, so they are part of the military
The civilian leadership of the “Department of the Navy” is NOT part of the military. Also take a look at the legal differences between military service men and civil servants in the “Department of the Navy”.
The head of the “Department of the Navy” – the “Secretary of the Navy” – nowadays is a government appointed civilian government official NOT an active duty military service man. The “Secretary of the Navy” is not a military rank, i.e. not an active US Navy Admiral or US Armed Forces officer by any other military rank. Normally the “Secretary of the Navy” is a civilian, check the record yourself. A normal civilian government official is by definition of law not a military service man.Originally posted by P47ace:
also the high command of the Department of the Navy are ether currently in service or or are Ex-service men
Let’s talk about hard data, for instance let us use the “Department of the Navy“ personnel strength as of July 2010 found here:Originally posted by P47ace:
anyone that is under the sec of the Navy is in the navy
be in mind this statement excules the civilan secrarties and "what not" under them, if their are any at all.
i believe you misunderstood my comment on the secrtaries,
i ment the secrataries that sit outside their offices buzz people in, take phone calls and take notes during meetings, i believe "some" of "those" people are civilans and do not fall under my pervious statment
http://www.globalsecurity.org/...ncy/end-strength.htm
US “Department of the Navy” personnel strength
- Civilian personnel: 199,000
So, the US “Department of the Navy” evidently employs a substantial number of civilian staff members (civilian civil servants) and they really are NOT all female secretaries - if that is really what you think. Check out the job vacancies for civilians at the “Department of the Navy”. Civilian means non-military to be sure. The “Department of the Navy” civilian personnel is also not part of the military command structure of the US Navy and USMC.
US Navy personnel strength
- Active: 324,239
- Mobilized: 10,818
- Selected reserve: 65,500
USMC personnel strength
- Active: 203,075
- Mobilized: 2,261
- Selected reserve: 39,600
Nope, the USMC is a component of the US "Department of the Navy" and not of the "US Navy", this is what I quoted from Wikipedia.Originally posted by P47ace:
as VV pointed out("Marines are a componect of the Navy"
You are mixing up different facts and different issues. I suggest you look up the difference between a military service combat branch entity and a civilian governmental department entity.
1. Civilian governmental department =/= military service combat branch.
2. The “Department of the Navy” =/= “US Navy”.
3. “Department of the Navy” = “USMC” + “US Navy” + “Civilian civil servants et al” + etc.
4. The independent USMC military service combat branch and independent “US Navy” military service combat branch are BOTH components of the civilian governmental department called the “Department of the Navy”.
5. The USMC is not a part of the “US Navy”.
