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  1. #1
    Virtual-Chris's Avatar Senior Member
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    Thoughts on suppressors, subsonic rounds, and alerting enemies

    One of the issues often discussed here is the Hollywood level of silence from suppressed weapons which goes hand-in-hand with poor enemy detection. Somewhat related is the fact that a few 5.56 SBR (short-barrelled rifles) have very poor damage and limited range.

    Until we get an overhaul to how suppressors, ammo/cartridges, damage, and detection works to make it realistic, here's my suggestion for those that want to make things a bit more immersive.

    Let's say that current suppressed noise levels, are only remotely appropriate when using subsonic ammunition... like 45 ACP or 300 BLK.

    For those that aren't familiar, 300 Blackout is basically a .308 caliber bullet in a .223 (5.56mm) casing. All you need to do to convert a 5.56 rifle to 300BLK is a barrel swap. The base of the cartridge is the same, so the Bolt Carrier Group (BCG) and even magazines work equally fine with both. 300BLK has lower muzzle velocity and more drop-off at range. It makes sense that 5.56 SBRS in the game with lower damage and range are actually configured to shoot sub-sonic 300BLK.

    We can use this to inject a bit of authenticity and immersion...

    Let's make a rule that any SBR AR with damage less than X is actually configured to run 300 blackout subsonic. On these weapons, you can use a suppressor, and the Hollywood sound output and detection is probably closer to reality. Although still exaggerated, it's better. I haven't fired one, but if you watch some Youtube videos, literally the only sound such a gun makes is the sound of the bolt cycling which is not silent, but pretty low profile.

    X could be 22 or 25 or 27, whatever you feel is reasonable, (I pick 25)... but definitely any of the assault variants are excluded from this. I would really only include weapons with short barrels - which is a characteristic of most of the under performing 5.56 rifles anyway.

    Then any AR with damage greater than X, is assumed to be firing high-velocity supersonic rounds but is still assumed to be suppressed, but instead of a suppressor you equip a linear compensator (blast shield I think it's called in the game) and that's how much sound it makes when suppressed. So in other words, shooting unsuppressed with these weapons is analogous to shooting suppressed in real life. In other words, it's not Hollywood silent, and will attract attention.

    Now for Snipers and DMRs, they should be run without suppressors at ll times to be realistic, because they are shooting high velocity rounds that will make a supersonic crack. The main benefit of a suppressor on these weapons is for flash and signature suppression and reduce the chance of being located, which isn't an issue with the poor AI detection we have in this game. And if you're shooting a DMR or SNR from more than about 200m you're not going to alert anyone anyhow... even without a suppressor which is already ludicrous since anyone in the region would likely hear the report of a 50-Cal being fired.

    For Handguns, I think they should normally be unsuppressed as you want to be able to quickly swap to your sidearm if you go Winchester on your carbine, and/or you're injured, have a jam or whatever.... you want maximize swap speed and damage. Since they fire 9mm and 45ACP subsonic, you can obviously equip a suppressor and greatly reduce their noise signature, but I think suppressed handguns are too Hollywood quiet - they won't even be heard in the next room. And while it can be fun and challenging to do pistol only infiltrations, no operator is going to do that. Instead, use a suppressed SBR as discussed above.

    I realize this is a half-a$$ed solution full of holes but I'm trying to work with the crap mechanics we have in this area the best I can.

    Thoughts?

    Copying this example of what I mean from later in the thread....

    Here's an example of how I've setup my ARs... in this case I'm using the ACR, as it's new, but you could do this with any AR that has a short barrel and a regular barrel. I'm also running Gear Score on so I can use buffs to further differentiate the two.

    Here's the SBR variant (assumed to be running 300 Blackout)... it's quiet and mobile as you would expect...



    Here's the Assault variant (assumed to be running 5.56)... this does more damage, has more range, but is louder... just as you'd expect for 5.56 vs 300Blk subsonic...


    (Note I can't put a control shield on this so I just used a flash hider)

    Here's a comparison of the two, you can see they are very different weapons, doing different damage and different range and different noise signatures that are fairly representative of the real-world difference between 300 Blackout subsonic and 5.56 supersonic.

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  2. #2
    TONY-NOVA's Avatar Senior Member
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    I'm 100% for it but Ubisoft can't even handle npc chatter correctly. Sound projection and the optimization of it is the worst I've ever seen, err heard, in any game I've played.
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  3. #3
    Virtual-Chris's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by TONY-NOVA Go to original post
    I'm 100% for it but Ubisoft can't even handle npc chatter correctly. Sound projection and the optimization of it is the worst I've ever seen, err heard, in any game I've played.
    Yeah, what I'm proposing though is a way to work with what we have to make it as realistic as possible. Ubisoft can be Ubisoft... but we can try our best to overcome their silly mechanics.
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  4. #4
    MikeWeeks's Avatar Senior Member
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    Gameplay-wise unsuppressed SMGs have to me a reasonable sound as if suppressed IRL. However those weapons I assume are not the type that would be favored by the military operators we supposedly are playing as.
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  5. #5
    Virtual-Chris's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by MikeWeeks Go to original post
    Gameplay-wise unsuppressed SMGs have to me a reasonable sound as if suppressed IRL. However those weapons I assume are not the type that would be favored by the military operators we supposedly are playing as.
    Yeah, based on what I’ve seen, SMGs are more the domain of security details. Although the SEAL teams and maybe others use SMGs like the MP7 for specific missions. So that’s an option as well. I just find SMGs too specialized for use on Auroa where you’re trecking all over the map and often engaging from a distance.

    One of the benefits of my proposal is that it breathes some life into those neutered 5.56 ARs in the game… giving them a purpose as a subsonic (quieter) CQB option. And utilizes the more potent 5.56 ARs as more appropriate for recon and assault roles.
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  6. #6
    I have practically 0 knowledge on guns, sounds etc. however, I do feel like sound ranges and alerting enemies could defently be improved, but maybe your suggestions may be more suitable for those who want a more emmersive experience and less suitable for those who like a more casual style of gameplay. So, maybe sound mechanics and mechanics on realism when it comes to gun mechanics / sound / alerting should be based on the gameplay level?

    By the way, didn't they attempt to have different levels of soundsuppression in Wildlands?
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  7. #7
    MikeWeeks's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Virtual-Chris Go to original post
    Yeah, based on what I’ve seen, SMGs are more the domain of security details. Although the SEAL teams and maybe others use SMGs like the MP7 for specific missions. So that’s an option as well. I just find SMGs too specialized for use on Auroa where you’re trecking all over the map and often engaging from a distance.

    One of the benefits of my proposal is that it breathes some life into those neutered 5.56 ARs in the game… giving them a purpose as a subsonic (quieter) CQB option. And utilizes the more potent 5.56 ARs as more appropriate for recon and assault roles.
    "security details" was the phrase I couldn't come up with ...

    As to engaging at distance - that's not been an issue whatsoever with SMGs in my case. The effective range I think are too great in-game, but outside of truly using a scoped SNR/DMR for serious distance shooting, I find a digital scope on a SMG (except the UMP-45 for some unknown reason) offers plenty of room to engage the dumb AI without much to fear.

    Again, this is in-game with how the studio decided to code the weapons/AI; however not ideal given the premise of the GR franchise.
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  8. #8
    Virtual-Chris's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by MikeWeeks Go to original post
    "security details" was the phrase I couldn't come up with ...

    As to engaging at distance - that's not been an issue whatsoever with SMGs in my case. The effective range I think are too great in-game, but outside of truly using a scoped SNR/DMR for serious distance shooting, I find a digital scope on a SMG (except the UMP-45 for some unknown reason) offers plenty of room to engage the dumb AI without much to fear.

    Again, this is in-game with how the studio decided to code the weapons/AI; however not ideal given the premise of the GR franchise.
    Agreed, distances are all highly compressed in the game. You have to apply your own common sense… and not snipe or take down an attack helicopter with a 12-gauge, for example, even though it’s entirely possible in the game.
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  9. #9
    Originally Posted by Virtual-Chris Go to original post
    I realize this is a half-a$$ed solution full of holes but I'm trying to work with the crap mechanics we have in this area the best I can.

    Thoughts?
    Above all, come up with a solution that is not within the garbage limitations of Breakpoint. I would actually really appreciate the ability to choose the specific type of bullets carried. It could be simplified down to something like Read Dead Online with options of FMJ, Subsonic, and a Ballistic tip round. Also could be selected for the firearm chosen or split up in an actual loadout to say have 2 or three mags subsonic and then three or four mags of FMJ or ballistic tip. Bonefrog had a good post pointing out how most ammo should have a sweet spot range for its highest damage potential and such a function has made it into games with Battlefield 1's sniper rifles. Caliber, bullet type, and barrel length should be taken into account for damage as well as the type of ballistic protection your adversary utilizes.

    The natural properties of the round fired should also be taken into account such as common .45 ACP rounds being subsonic, though there are some lighter grain weight .45 ammo with supersonic velocities and again should be a nice option for more depth of gameplay and strategic choice for missions.

    Suppressors should not decrease damage at all, but should effect handling and even sway. Wildlands had a sound reduction stat and you could have multiple suppressors to vary between sound suppression and handling characteristics. They could also throw in a suppressor model that utilizes wipes instead of baffles for additional sound suppression, but with the added caveat that it wears down with use to the point it is essentially broken like how it works with some suppressors in MGS5.
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  10. #10
    Virtual-Chris's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Church367A Go to original post
    I would actually really appreciate the ability to choose the specific type of bullets carried.
    I agree with everything you say, but this (quoted bit) is exactly what I’m proposing we can do (while we wait for Ubisoft to get onboard). I realize it’s a wall of text.

    To summarize… you have one SBR configured for 300 Blk and one AR for 5.56 (a single rifle cannot switch between them without a barrel swap). For example, your M4 Tactical or shorty is assumed to be configured for 300Blk with a suppressor, and your M4A1 or assault variant is setup with 5,56 and a blast shield. You choose the right tool for the job. Damage, range and noise is all a bit more realistic for both.
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