1. #121
    Dieinthedark's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by LuckyBide Go to original post
    Stealth is no longer treated as a genre but as a mechanic. And to answer your question, I think it needs to get out of that by going back to the basics. It would be the first step and the most important one. If it's done, it would mean that stealth is becoming a new "popular" thing among players, at least popular enough for publishers to release new stealth games. And once we'll have that, it will be possible for the genre to be modernized so it can revolutionize or redefine itself with new mechanics and features taking advantage of new technologies and todays powerful consoles.
    I can't say I agree completely; if SC simply returned the basics I don't have any reason to believe that it would perform well enough in sales for a AAA developer/publisher like Ubi to care. What's disheartening to realize is that us hardcore stealth fans, while we are the heart of the genre, we are in the minority of all players. The gameplay loops between Hitman and SC are distinct enough that I don't see SC being successful in it's definition of stealth just because Hitman has been. Sure, there's room to improve but the success of one doesn't necessarily correlate to the success of the other.



    Originally Posted by LuckyBide Go to original post
    I didn't expect to encounter so much cold responses from the subreddit moderators and also from the staff of an important SC discord server.
    ...
    In my mind they can disagree with the letter of course but I think they shouldn't let their personal opinion prevent everybody to be informed about the existence of this open letter.

    I wouldn't take this personally Lucky. A lot of us have had this fight for over a decade and it's clear that Ubisoft doesn't care. They don't answer to us, they answer to their stakeholders. And why should they care? Look how successful Siege has been, they've bastardized RB6, an arguably single player game, into a pure competitive MP shooter. Splinter Cell has never had the mass appeal that Rainbow Six and Ghost Recon did, and those games have suffered the same fates. Basically we are the minority of fans in the least popular TC franchise. I would argue that this letter would have more weight if it wasn't franchise specific. Most of the concerns here are about marketing and the intended audience of SC, but it could applied to all legacy TC franchises including GR and RB6. But again, that's a direction that's being set by their executives and an open letter regarding one IP that they own, even with a thousand signatures, isn't going to make them change their direction for their target audience.
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  2. #122
    LuckyBide's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Dieinthedark Go to original post
    I can't say I agree completely; if SC simply returned the basics I don't have any reason to believe that it would perform well enough in sales for a AAA developer/publisher like Ubi to care. What's disheartening to realize is that us hardcore stealth fans, while we are the heart of the genre, we are in the minority of all players. The gameplay loops between Hitman and SC are distinct enough that I don't see SC being successful in it's definition of stealth just because Hitman has been. Sure, there's room to improve but the success of one doesn't necessarily correlate to the success of the other.
    That is why in my opinion it is a mistake to think that Splinter Cell can nowadays please all hardcore fans and all casual players at the same time. And that's also why we're talking in a letter about "a smaller scale production". We don't want Ubisoft to apply their AAA template to Splinter Cell, this franchise has to be treated differently.
    Sure Hitman has more social elements in its gameplay, more things that make the game humoristic. But SC could become the king of hardcore stealth genre nowadays, not only because there's no concurrence but also because difficult games tend to attract a certain audience of players who is eager for hardcore experiences.
    I think Ubisoft could do something really smart and adopt a difficulty system that would be welcoming with new players on easy difficulty and learning them the basics of stealth, while it would be ruthless with hardcore players on hard difficulty. I posted a message about that a few weeks ago on Reddit (it's my second post there, the one that's highlighted): https://www.reddit.com/r/Splintercel...eb2x&context=3
    By the way and imo, MGS V managed to please stealth fans and action players in a better way. But the context of that franchise is different from Splinter Cell and even if stealth in MGS V was good, it was far from perfect.

    I'll now take another example than Hitman, another one that shows the right way to go: Ready Or Not. It is a realistic hardcore tactical FPS still in alpha state of development by a small indie team called VOID Interactive. They are working on the game for many years now, people can buy a special edition that allows them access to the alpha and they can give feedback to developers. A few days ago the devs published a new update with singleplayer/coop missions and there has been multiple videos on Youtube by players who are praising the game, like for example OperatorDrewski: https://youtu.be/O_HMFeSkyWY?t=42
    And as a result devs have seen sales of the special edition raise as a point where they hadn't planned enough Steam keys : https://twitter.com/VOIDInteractive/...29063379472385
    I'm convinced that following that same process of involving players at an early stage of development and listening to their feedback for SC would promote the game in a good way thanks to word of mouth. And as you can see Ready Or Not doesn't have top notch graphics, it's not a AAA production but it still succeeded into building a strong community of players around it. Besides this game wants to go back to the roots of the tactical FPS genre that was represented by SWAT and Rainbow Six series in the early 2000s, and for now it is doing it the right way.


    Originally Posted by Dieinthedark Go to original post
    I wouldn't take this personally Lucky. A lot of us have had this fight for over a decade and it's clear that Ubisoft doesn't care. They don't answer to us, they answer to their stakeholders. And why should they care? Look how successful Siege has been, they've bastardized RB6, an arguably single player game, into a pure competitive MP shooter. Splinter Cell has never had the mass appeal that Rainbow Six and Ghost Recon did, and those games have suffered the same fates. Basically we are the minority of fans in the least popular TC franchise. I would argue that this letter would have more weight if it wasn't franchise specific. Most of the concerns here are about marketing and the intended audience of SC, but it could applied to all legacy TC franchises including GR and RB6. But again, that's a direction that's being set by their executives and an open letter regarding one IP that they own, even with a thousand signatures, isn't going to make them change their direction for their target audience.
    These moderators from Reddit and Discord have no link with Ubisoft, they're just "fans" like you and I. So that's why their refusals are incomprehensible and have probably been pushed by negative motivations.

    "Splinter Cell has never had the mass appeal that Rainbow Six and Ghost Recon did" => Splinter Cell was Ubisoft's best-selling franchise before the first Assassin's Creed game arrives. The reason why SC is now ignored and not very well-known is because the stealth genre has been severely manhandled during this last decade, turning it into a feature in other genres.
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  3. #123
    Wow I'm so glad there so many folks still around, who care, who are full of ideas and still want the best stealth splinter cell experienced possible.
    I hope you're all doing well

    Great idea Lucky for creating this petition and gathering so many people. I signed it myself and also upvoted your post on reddit
    Best of Luck with Ubi.
    I still haven't finished AC2. Please don't get us all banned
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  4. #124
    Yeah, we mentioned that the next Splinter Cell shouldn't have a budget as large as other Ubisoft franchises. All that it needs is a dedicated group of developers who love stealth and the Splinter Cell series. If they can adjust their expectations according to the genre, I think Ubisoft will be surprised to see just how eager players are for a genuine stealth game. Having player feedback would also help in making sure that the game's direction doesn't go awry.

    Also, Ready or Not is certainly shaping up to be a good game so far. If anything, the game's direction is how I think the later Rainbow Six games should've been: An intense first-person tactical shooter that rewarded patience, tactics, and teamwork while expanding on the foundations of the prior games.
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  5. #125
    LuckyBide's Avatar Senior Member
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    Thanks again NightGhost1994 for your help and support

    NoviceGuy : Definitely. I cannot imagine how great the R6 singleplayer/coop experiences would be now if they had kept the original philosophy created by Tom Clancy himself. Instead of that we're having agents with bright colored silly skins and outfits who are fighting aliens...
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  6. #126
    I feel like R6 Siege transitioned the best of all Tom Clancy titles. However I have to say, I never played the old titles and I would have definitely liked to play a Singleplayer Campaign. So I can understand if the veterans are not really happy about how it turned out.

    Ghost Recon could have been Ubisoft's MGSV killer. Seems like they are not really interested in competing against that. Could actually just copy all the gameplay systems and tweak them to make them work with your Ghost squad.

    Other projects like Tom Clancy XDefiant kinda show, in my opinion, that Ubisoft doesn't want to establish new IP's but use very well known names to advertise their game ideas. Seems just out of touch. Maybe I am just too close-minded.
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  7. #127
    LuckyBide's Avatar Senior Member
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    You're not close-minded. They are out of touch. And that's why they need to reconnect strongly with the fans.
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  8. #128
    LuckyBide's Avatar Senior Member
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    A quick small update about the letter, we've just reached 300 supporters today : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...TFF7IqT7zm5wM/

    It's really hard to get people's attention and too many of them are negative and think it's useless. Sad to see that a lot of them are not even taking the time to read the letter at least, I bet they'll be the first ones to complain when Ubisoft will publish the first trailer for SC7...

    Anyway I've also met very nice people among the supporters who are willingly helping me to talk about the letter and giving some good ideas on where to post it next. It will be a long journey that will lasts for weeks or even months but I hope the letter will slowly but surely bring more and more people on the way.
    Having 1000 supporters would be a dream and would be a good argument to convince more people, but reaching 500 supporters would already be a nice step.
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  9. #129
    Have you been able to contact any prominent Youtube channels?

    Having a brief sponsor from them would help bring more awareness to the letter.
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  10. #130
    LuckyBide's Avatar Senior Member
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    Not yet, I want first to get more suppporters so it will give more credibility to the letter before contacting any Youtuber. I believe it would have more chances to get their attention.

    I don't think they will all accept though, especially if some of them have partnerships with publishers. But we'll try.
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