1. #21
    LuckyBide's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by CoastalGirl Go to original post
    I like that. It's how I picture difficulties working, too. More focus on actual AI actions, and less reliance on just detection range. In an ideal world, we'd see individual options for a lot of the features, too. They're already doing that in AC, so why not SC, as well? It's hard to predict what a random player might want turn on/off, so why not let them choose?
    I went to see what they did with AC Valhalla's difficulty settings. It's clearly a step in the right direction, and I hope to see more games offering multiple difficulty options to players in the future.
    Pure stealth games can have way more options and features to be toggled on or off, or adjusted. The Dishonored games did a great job at that.
    Splinter Cell could definitely please a larger audience and make old fans very happy by offering multiple difficulty options.
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  2. #22
    Originally Posted by LuckyBide Go to original post
    I went to see what they did with AC Valhalla's difficulty settings. It's clearly a step in the right direction, and I hope to see more games offering multiple difficulty options to players in the future.
    Pure stealth games can have way more options and features to be toggled on or off, or adjusted. The Dishonored games did a great job at that.
    Splinter Cell could definitely please a larger audience and make old fans very happy by offering multiple difficulty options.
    Really being able to customize the experience would be amazing. Though I typically go all-out in terms of difficulty with stealth games, if there was an option for "we'll give you some treats for the dogs so they won't attack you and you can pet them", I would turn it on in a heartbeat.
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  3. #23
    LuckyBide's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by CoastalGirl Go to original post
    Really being able to customize the experience would be amazing. Though I typically go all-out in terms of difficulty with stealth games, if there was an option for "we'll give you some treats for the dogs so they won't attack you and you can pet them", I would turn it on in a heartbeat.
    Haha, that would be a really funny option to have. And if that happens to be a real thing in the next game then we will know who gave the idea to the developers
    After all Snake had a dog and a horse in MGS V so why Sam cannot become friend with dogs and cats he meets along the way ^^

    But yeah, more customization is always for the best and adding more replay value. A few years ago I posted an idea (inspired by the newer Hitman) about a game mode separated from the main campaign and would allow players to replay missions by modifying time and weather of the mission, those two parameters having subsequent effects on the number of NPCs, their location, their patterns, the security systems and so on. And recently the new Portal mode for Battlefield 2042 convinced me even more that a level editor with many customizable options would fit perfectly to Splinter Cell and would also highly benefit to the game. So I updated that first idea and added even more customization, it's on reddit if you're interested in reading it: https://www.reddit.com/r/Splintercel...tor_mode_idea/
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  4. #24
    With the speak of difficulties, they can be great for accessibility, but can always have issues arise. It's important to properly balance each of them, especially the harder ones. Many expert modes are thoughtless thrown together and definitely have unfair moments which can be annoying.

    In Chaos Theory, the first game to make Expert affect the shadow meter and noise meter, there were some minor issues that were overlooked. On Expert, you can be spotted in the vent on Bathhouse when listening into the meeting and be identified as an intruder in your rating without even knowing. The coop missions in Chaos Theory were always a notch down in quality compared to the single player, it clearly had a B team of level designers and the AI is more finnicky. Many of the coop missions have just unfair rooms with 0 shadows to hide in on Expert, but they are perfectly playable and fair on Normal since you have access to the entire first section of the shadow meter.

    Another famous example is how Halo 2's Legendary mode was never properly balanced and it was never fun, it was about cheesing the game as much as possible to get through sections and hoping to get checkpoints. Difficulties can be done, but avoid these common problems and customization to each difficulty can be nice. Thief 4, although a terrible game, some of the options given in the "custom" difficulty settings were nice.

    I do still think Chaos Theory went overkill in the assault section of expert, I know it's a stealth game, but I did enjoy how in Stealth Action Redefined when you got detected, it didn't necessarily mean game over immediately with an AI aimbotting your head in 0.5 seconds and killing Sam. SAR guards took longer to react and Hard difficulty didn't have crazy damage values. Another stupid thing with CT, was how guards immediately knew your location in the shadows and sprayed your head off when releasing gas on a sticky cam that knocked out their nearby buddy.

    These are very specific examples I know, and aren't really great for sending a letter to Ubisoft, but just thoughts about difficulty and making sure its properly balanced for the harder difficulty modes. A lot of good games decide to skip having difficulties, and having a good universal one, like Nintendo games or like Dark Souls. Sometimes, I almost prefer knowing I have the intended experience by the developer that has been playtested many times than playing a stupid unfair difficulty mode that wasn't 100% playtested. So, if anything I would say the hardest difficulty mode should be used as the base for balancing, and then you scale down for accessibility.
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  5. #25
    Originally Posted by LuckyBide Go to original post
    But yeah, more customization is always for the best and adding more replay value. A few years ago I posted an idea (inspired by the newer Hitman) about a game mode separated from the main campaign and would allow players to replay missions by modifying time and weather of the mission, those two parameters having subsequent effects on the number of NPCs, their location, their patterns, the security systems and so on. And recently the new Portal mode for Battlefield 2042 convinced me even more that a level editor with many customizable options would fit perfectly to Splinter Cell and would also highly benefit to the game. So I updated that first idea and added even more customization, it's on reddit if you're interested in reading it: https://www.reddit.com/r/Splintercel...tor_mode_idea/
    I've always wanted a level editor. There's a ton of replay potential in it, even if it were only customizing existing environments. I especially like the idea of changing weather, and how that could impact play. I know we've talked about things like leaving footprints in snow, or dripping water on floors...it's all possible now. I probably wouldn't change the time of day, though...maybe from night to another point in the night... lol

    Originally Posted by WashedUpUbio Go to original post
    So, if anything I would say the hardest difficulty mode should be used as the base for balancing, and then you scale down for accessibility.
    I never really thought about that, but I like it. I think the overall experience would be cleaner if they did that, though testing can be tricky. When you have devs testing, they already know the level so it's not like a fresh pair of eyes. When you have a playtesters, you have to hope they're from the target audience, or their feedback might be damaging.
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  6. #26
    BoBwUzHeRe1138's Avatar Senior Member
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    Like others, I am skeptical and pessimistic, doubtful that this will yield any substantive or quantifiable reaction that will impact the game -- part of me thinks, "they've had 15+ years of post-Chaos Theory feedback, post-Double Agent feedback, post-Conviction feedback, post-Blacklist feedback; if they haven't gotten the hint yet, they never will!"

    And yet, if there's one thing I've learned from Star Wars, comics, etc., it's that there's always hope lol

    Ubisoft has the capability of making a game that at least lives up to the original idea and ethos of the series, if they simply let it. Clint Hocking works there and it would be a shame not to involve him. Would that alone solve the issue and give us a game we want? No -- not any one thing will... but it would definitely be a good start.

    I'd be down to come up with part of an introduction that could potentially be used.
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  7. #27
    LuckyBide's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by WashedUpUbio Go to original post
    With the speak of difficulties, they can be great for accessibility, but can always have issues arise. It's important to properly balance each of them, especially the harder ones. Many expert modes are thoughtless thrown together and definitely have unfair moments which can be annoying.
    I agree with you and I understand it must be hard for developers to perfectly balance each difficulty for each sequence of the game. It requires a lot of playtests and resources for the development team and their time is precious and limited.
    I definitely think Splinter Cell must at least have 4 difficulty modes. First one on easy that could assist players by allowing them to mark enemies, to have more ammunitions and gadgets, more information and advices given by Grim and the team. That mode would be essential to bring new players into the genre and the franchise and slowly learn them the mechanics. And the other difficulty modes will of course bring more challenge but by making difficulty evolve in a smart way, like giving more environment awareness and reaction to the AI like I explained in one of my previous messages. And besides of all this, a level editor mode where players would be free to settle their own difficulty is also needed so the most hardcore players can be happy as well.

    However I'm afraid Ubisoft playtest sessions on Splinter Cell may not represent stealth players and their expectations. I wonder if they pay attention and really care about the fact they played or not the previous games. That's why I think the process IO Interactive did with Hitman 2016 is the right way to go for Ubisoft and Splinter Cell. If the rumor is true then they should release that vertical slice demo and listen to fans feedback and work hand-in-hand with them. That for me would be the safest and best way to bring Splinter Cell back.


    Originally Posted by WashedUpUbio Go to original post
    These are very specific examples I know, and aren't really great for sending a letter to Ubisoft, but just thoughts about difficulty and making sure its properly balanced for the harder difficulty modes. A lot of good games decide to skip having difficulties, and having a good universal one, like Nintendo games or like Dark Souls. Sometimes, I almost prefer knowing I have the intended experience by the developer that has been playtested many times than playing a stupid unfair difficulty mode that wasn't 100% playtested. So, if anything I would say the hardest difficulty mode should be used as the base for balancing, and then you scale down for accessibility.
    Your theory about using the hardest difficulty as a base is interesting. I'm no developer so I can't really judge it but it's clear for me that difficulty modes should be clearly defined and separated from each others by having specific features or challenges attached to each one. The goal would be to really give a good motivation for the player to crank up the difficulty.


    Originally Posted by CoastalGirl Go to original post
    I've always wanted a level editor. There's a ton of replay potential in it, even if it were only customizing existing environments. I especially like the idea of changing weather, and how that could impact play. I know we've talked about things like leaving footprints in snow, or dripping water on floors...it's all possible now.
    Leaving drops of water on the ground could bring some nice gameplay moments. It could even lead players to unlock a hydrophobic outfit that would repel water, and that technology does exist !
    And I'm always picturing that scene with a guard following the water trail and then stopping where it ends, looking around him and a drop of water falls on his shoulder. He looks up, uses his flashlight, sees Sam doing a split and gets surprised right before seeing this weirdo all dressed in black falling on him and knocking him out. That would make a nice sequence in a trailer


    Originally Posted by CoastalGirl Go to original post
    I probably wouldn't change the time of day, though...maybe from night to another point in the night... lol
    I don't want to change the time of the day. I agree with you and that's why I suggested that we could choose between sunset, middle of the night and sunrise.
    I didn't detail it on my reddit thread that I linked above but I gave more examples and explanation in the first version of my idea. It's quite long but here's the part where I explained the characteristics about the time of the mission:

    Spoiler:  Show

    Missions will always take place during the night and the player will be able to choose between three options which each one representing a distinct moment of the night in order to propose balanced options so that each one of them is interesting and original to play. So here are the time periods of all options:
    - sunset : between 9 PM and 12 AM (according to geographical location and season of the year)
    - middle of the night : between 1 AM and 4 AM (according to geographical location and season of the year)
    - sunrise: between 5 PM and 8 AM (according to geographical location and season of the year)

    The following explanation is an example. Let's say that the mission is located in an urban area (at Sarajevo) where the player will have first to cross a neighborhood full of civilians before entering the main mission area.
    Here are the three options (that I also call choices) that the player will be able to access. Each of them is defined with a distinct luminosity and different amount of guards, civilians, systems to hack and accesses to lockpick.



    1 – During the “sunset” option, the player will progress through a map which will begin at sunset and therefore will already include many areas with shadows and darkness.
    As the mission progresses, the map will become darker and darker and the player will see the environment around him evolve as NPCs will start to turn on the lights so areas that weren’t enlightened at beginning will be later during the mission. And once the sun is down, more and more street lamps will start to turn on automatically (we can imagine that Grim announces to Sam when they turn on so that the player won’t be surprised when it happens).
    Throughout the mission, the player will also see more and more guards using their lamps during their rounds. If the mission takes place in an urban area like in this example, the player will progressively see shops and offices close as time goes by. Consequently civilian NPCs will leave their offices and homes or will go to restaurants or bars, which will involve more traffic in the corridors and streets. So in order to balance the difficulty, some security systems will not be activated yet and there will also be less accesses (doors, ...) locked, which will involve less hacking and lock picking to perform.


    2 - For the “middle of the night” option, the entire mission will take place during a dark night and thus will have more classic conditions. However all street lamps will be no during the whole mission and more guards will use their flashlights. There will be few civilian NPCs in the streets and most of shops and offices will be closed. But still in order to balance difficulty, this is the option where all security systems will be activated and the most accesses will be closed, which will involve more hacking and lock picking. Besides guards will be more careful and more inclined to be suspicious if they hear or see something unusual.


    3 – The “sunrise” option will be pretty much the opposite of the first option. The player will start the mission during a dark night and will see the map become brighter and brighter on outdoors, which will complicates his task because he’ll be more and more exposed to sunlight over the mission and there will be less and less areas plunged into darkness.
    However street lamps will gradually go off, guards will use their lamps less often but we will see civilian NPCs going to work and shops opening their doors, which will generate traffic in the streets and inside the buildings.
    And like for the "sunset" option, some of the security systems will not be activated yet and there will also be more non-locked accesses, which will involve less hacking and hacking. However and in order to create different challenges through those options, security systems and accesses will not necessarily be the same as those activated or locked at sunset.

    Of course all of that would apply in the context of an urban mission but some parameters and characteristics won’t be the same if the mission takes place in a totally different location as for example a military base, an enemy camp full of mercenaries, a hotel or somewhere else…
    [...]

    As a result, all these different options will impact lights and shadows, which is the central and main Splinter Cell’s gameplay element. And depending on the chosen option, this may make some paths more difficult to cross and thus encourage the player to choose other ones, or to be more cautious and smarter and then change his method in order to go through a same area without to be noticed. Of course NPCs patterns will be different depending on each option. Guards and civilians will not be at the same place and will not have the same routines. Besides NPCs present on the map during the sunset won’t necessarily be the same as those at sunrise or at the middle of the night. And I think this formula would allow the inclusion of small scripts in the rounds of some NPCs to make their patterns and their reactions more credible. Or even embellish NPCs reactions and routines with some surprises for the player in order to not giving the map a generic flavor.
    In my opinion this would allow to create living and breathing maps, which will evolve in a realistic way and with lightings changes from one option to another, whether it is lightings coming from the sun, the moon or lamps.
    We could also imagine giving the player the ability to push a little more interaction with the environment in order to create shadow areas by having for example the ability to hack and close electric shutters to plunge a room in the dark, or by disabling the electrical panel of a whole floor, or by hacking the lighting network of the city in order to extinguish street lamps, or by using the OCP on lamps or night vision goggles guards are using in order to blind them temporarily, etc.
    And to increase immersion and realism, we could obviously include some elements related to sunrise like birds clouds in the sky, singing birds, cobwebs,... Or also elements related to the night like fireflies or even crickets noises during the sunset.

    The full thread including the weather options is available here: https://forums.ubisoft.com/showthrea...-Splinter-Cell




    Originally Posted by BoBwUzHeRe1138 Go to original post
    Like others, I am skeptical and pessimistic, doubtful that this will yield any substantive or quantifiable reaction that will impact the game -- part of me thinks, "they've had 15+ years of post-Chaos Theory feedback, post-Double Agent feedback, post-Conviction feedback, post-Blacklist feedback; if they haven't gotten the hint yet, they never will!"

    And yet, if there's one thing I've learned from Star Wars, comics, etc., it's that there's always hope lol

    Ubisoft has the capability of making a game that at least lives up to the original idea and ethos of the series, if they simply let it. Clint Hocking works there and it would be a shame not to involve him. Would that alone solve the issue and give us a game we want? No -- not any one thing will... but it would definitely be a good start.

    I'd be down to come up with part of an introduction that could potentially be used.

    Everybody here is pessimistic. But we already know Ubisoft won't listen to us if we just continue to post on the forums so let's try another approach. Hopefully this open letter would get enough support to draw their attention and open a discussion. We don't have another solution...

    Clint Hocking is working on Assassin's Creed right now so we'll still have to wait and hope he wants to work on SC again someday. But most importantly Ubisoft need to give more creative freedom to their developers and change their mind about how they're making games, their structure and their monetization. Not all games can become open-worlds, not all games can be free-to-play, not all games are meant to be filled with microtransactions and bring in hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue. And definitely not Splinter Cell which belongs to a niche genre.

    Alright, let us know when you'll finish that introduction and please post it here.
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  8. #28
    For a suggestion, I would like to have briefings return. Similar to what was seen in Chaos Theory, this would help establish the setting and history of the location and why Sam has to infiltrate said location.

    On top of that, it would also be interesting to have Sam's thoughts be present during these briefings. This would allow Sam to show his character and what he thinks about the mission.

    Some examples of Sam narrating his thoughts would be akin to the Thief series:




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  9. #29
    Other suggestions that I've in mind:

    1.) The ability to jump - Allow the player to have the freedom to explore and find multiple ways to traverse the level. It would be interesting to see more verticality in the levels.

    2.) The ability to holster your weapon - This small detail further elevates the mentality that your gun is a last resort, and that invisibility is your best weapon.

    3.) Scary levels - This is something that I'd always wanted to see in a Splinter Cell game (as long as it fits within the context of the plot, of course). The closest one that I could think of achieving this is the Cryogenics lab in Pandora Tomorrow.

    4.) Swat turn - A small mechanic that was only seen in Pandora Tomorrow (as far as I'm concern). I would like to see this return as opposed to the cover mechanics of Blacklist.

    5.) Pickpocketing - I'm surprised this is a feature that the original games never included. Some items that could be pickpocketed would be i.d. cards, keys, and phones.

    6.) Less scripted events - Don't force the player in a situation that doesn't coincide with how they play. The only exception for this would be in events where the plot calls for it, but even this should be limited.

    7.) Disposable pick / Laser microphone / Camara jammer or Later Replacements - These are gadgets that were replaced with the EEV feature, knife, and OCP in Chaos Theory and Double Agent but abandoned in the later games.

    8.) OPSAT / Ring Airfoil Projectile - The OPSAT should store valuable information about the mission alongside notes collected throughout the level. The ring airfoil projectile would also be another gadget that would be nice to return.

    9.) Expand the level - Bring more open design to the level with multiple paths and verticality. I'd like to see the levels more akin to the original Thief games' level design.

    10.) Make the focus be on one playstyle - Instead of trying to appeal to every single market, the developers must focus on the one playstyle and only having other playstyles as possible, but challenging experiences. Pursuing the other playstyles should have consequences to the overall plot and characters, in order to show that one's playstyle has lasting effects in the game's world.

    If I have more suggestions, I'll see if I can add more.
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  10. #30
    Originally Posted by LuckyBide Go to original post
    Leaving drops of water on the ground could bring some nice gameplay moments. It could even lead players to unlock a hydrophobic outfit that would repel water, and that technology does exist !
    And I'm always picturing that scene with a guard following the water trail and then stopping where it ends, looking around him and a drop of water falls on his shoulder. He looks up, uses his flashlight, sees Sam doing a split and gets surprised right before seeing this weirdo all dressed in black falling on him and knocking him out. That would make a nice sequence in a trailer
    I can definitely picture that. It's the kind of thing I like to see - an interesting scenario that emphasizes stealth, and that humor fits right into. It's classic Splinter Cell.

    I don't want to change the time of the day. I agree with you and that's why I suggested that we could choose between sunset, middle of the night and sunrise.
    I didn't detail it on my reddit thread that I linked above but I gave more examples and explanation in the first version of my idea. It's quite long but here's the part where I explained the characteristics about the time of the mission:

    Spoiler:  Show

    Missions will always take place during the night and the player will be able to choose between three options which each one representing a distinct moment of the night in order to propose balanced options so that each one of them is interesting and original to play. So here are the time periods of all options:
    - sunset : between 9 PM and 12 AM (according to geographical location and season of the year)
    - middle of the night : between 1 AM and 4 AM (according to geographical location and season of the year)
    - sunrise: between 5 PM and 8 AM (according to geographical location and season of the year)

    The following explanation is an example. Let's say that the mission is located in an urban area (at Sarajevo) where the player will have first to cross a neighborhood full of civilians before entering the main mission area.
    Here are the three options (that I also call choices) that the player will be able to access. Each of them is defined with a distinct luminosity and different amount of guards, civilians, systems to hack and accesses to lockpick.



    1 – During the “sunset” option, the player will progress through a map which will begin at sunset and therefore will already include many areas with shadows and darkness.
    As the mission progresses, the map will become darker and darker and the player will see the environment around him evolve as NPCs will start to turn on the lights so areas that weren’t enlightened at beginning will be later during the mission. And once the sun is down, more and more street lamps will start to turn on automatically (we can imagine that Grim announces to Sam when they turn on so that the player won’t be surprised when it happens).
    Throughout the mission, the player will also see more and more guards using their lamps during their rounds. If the mission takes place in an urban area like in this example, the player will progressively see shops and offices close as time goes by. Consequently civilian NPCs will leave their offices and homes or will go to restaurants or bars, which will involve more traffic in the corridors and streets. So in order to balance the difficulty, some security systems will not be activated yet and there will also be less accesses (doors, ...) locked, which will involve less hacking and lock picking to perform.


    2 - For the “middle of the night” option, the entire mission will take place during a dark night and thus will have more classic conditions. However all street lamps will be no during the whole mission and more guards will use their flashlights. There will be few civilian NPCs in the streets and most of shops and offices will be closed. But still in order to balance difficulty, this is the option where all security systems will be activated and the most accesses will be closed, which will involve more hacking and lock picking. Besides guards will be more careful and more inclined to be suspicious if they hear or see something unusual.


    3 – The “sunrise” option will be pretty much the opposite of the first option. The player will start the mission during a dark night and will see the map become brighter and brighter on outdoors, which will complicates his task because he’ll be more and more exposed to sunlight over the mission and there will be less and less areas plunged into darkness.
    However street lamps will gradually go off, guards will use their lamps less often but we will see civilian NPCs going to work and shops opening their doors, which will generate traffic in the streets and inside the buildings.
    And like for the "sunset" option, some of the security systems will not be activated yet and there will also be more non-locked accesses, which will involve less hacking and hacking. However and in order to create different challenges through those options, security systems and accesses will not necessarily be the same as those activated or locked at sunset.

    Of course all of that would apply in the context of an urban mission but some parameters and characteristics won’t be the same if the mission takes place in a totally different location as for example a military base, an enemy camp full of mercenaries, a hotel or somewhere else…
    [...]

    As a result, all these different options will impact lights and shadows, which is the central and main Splinter Cell’s gameplay element. And depending on the chosen option, this may make some paths more difficult to cross and thus encourage the player to choose other ones, or to be more cautious and smarter and then change his method in order to go through a same area without to be noticed. Of course NPCs patterns will be different depending on each option. Guards and civilians will not be at the same place and will not have the same routines. Besides NPCs present on the map during the sunset won’t necessarily be the same as those at sunrise or at the middle of the night. And I think this formula would allow the inclusion of small scripts in the rounds of some NPCs to make their patterns and their reactions more credible. Or even embellish NPCs reactions and routines with some surprises for the player in order to not giving the map a generic flavor.
    In my opinion this would allow to create living and breathing maps, which will evolve in a realistic way and with lightings changes from one option to another, whether it is lightings coming from the sun, the moon or lamps.
    We could also imagine giving the player the ability to push a little more interaction with the environment in order to create shadow areas by having for example the ability to hack and close electric shutters to plunge a room in the dark, or by disabling the electrical panel of a whole floor, or by hacking the lighting network of the city in order to extinguish street lamps, or by using the OCP on lamps or night vision goggles guards are using in order to blind them temporarily, etc.
    And to increase immersion and realism, we could obviously include some elements related to sunrise like birds clouds in the sky, singing birds, cobwebs,... Or also elements related to the night like fireflies or even crickets noises during the sunset.

    The full thread including the weather options is available here: https://forums.ubisoft.com/showthrea...-Splinter-Cell


    I like the detail! I'd be really happy to see options like those. The same basic environment would play completely differently in the various scenarios - I like it. Also, the potential of a time element is interesting. I wouldn't say I'm a fan of timed objectives, but that's because they're usually done to cause panic. Having it be passive is more appealing.
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