1. #271
    generalbrown02's Avatar Member
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    Originally Posted by LuckyBide Go to original post
    I played Get Even. They used a photorealistic technology for the graphics and the game looks great but in terms of gameplay the game is kinda average, there are some nice ideas but there's a lot of issues and limitations. It is unfair to compare these two games one to another but imo Splinter Cell SAR is way more fun than this game on many points.
    And I think you are underestimating it, a game like SAR being released today would have a lot of praise today. There are many small indie stealth games released today that have very basic features and graphics that even Thief 1 surpasses them.
    You have the right to make your own analysis and think that the game didn't age well but I think you're wrong on the general perception.




    Not in the letter, we just made some references to SAR about the philosophy of the game that was about information and its purpose which was to redefine the stealth action genre.
    You probably read us talking about linearity in one of the threads here. I don't think anyone wants to go back to that format, but as I said I think it would be interesting to have a mix of linear and openness environments in the remake (and the new game if it's in development). Because Splinter Cell is also about having that claustrophobic feel, those narrow corridors and rooms where you have to sneak while being very close to guards.

    Anyway overall I agree with you, we indeed have a misunderstanding over terms. I want Splinter Cell to be inspired by Hitman and MGS V Ground Zeroes but I also want it to go further and make indoors level design more interesting and more complex than the one in these games. And if there's linear corridors or small rooms (which is normal in a building) then it would not be wrong and it would be not about going back to that linear format.

    And I think that Conviction and especially Blacklist failed at giving alternative paths (or multiple paths as you call them) because these paths were not bringing something interesting, they were just here to allow the player to get around some enemies and get quicker to the next area.




    Be reassured, we completely agree about Phantom Pain and Ground Zeroes. The open world and the Mother Base management ruined the momentum in Phantom Pain. They should have done multiple missions in different locations in the size of GZ or slightly bigger and more complex. And I agree with you, that's also what I want for Splinter Cell.

    Good for you if you like Ghost Recon Wildlands. To me this game isn't a stealth game not a real Ghost Recon game. I understand it can be a fun game, especially in coop. But there are too many issues with this game and too many design decisions that I dislike to enjoy it.
    About the technological progress it depends on what we're talking about. These days most of this progression is only about graphics. I personally don't care about graphics, to me technological progress should first and foremost be about AI, their complex reactions, their number and their ability to outsmart the player. Secondly it comes about level design, making levels bigger, more complex and more intricate and the player having more control and interactions on its environment. Then it comes on animations, their precision, the control given to the player and their realism (in the case of Splinter Cell). And at the end come the graphics.
    So I can easily play and enjoy a game that has been made in 2002 way more than a game made in 2022 if the old game has a better and more interesting gameplay.




    Stories in Hitman were here to help newcomers in the series, most of longtime fans disabled them and play without any help.
    However I think that SC developers must add new features or tools that would help newcomers to understand the complex stealth mechanics of Splinter Cell. Of course these features/tools could be toggled off for hardcore players. But devs have to find a way to teach stealth to new players because that's the only way to make sure that Splinter Cell goes back to its roots and becomes again a hardcore stealth game.
    Otherwise the other solution is to dumb down gameplay mechanics, it's what Conviction and Blacklist did and we've seen the awful results that it did and how it divided the fanbase.
    I think we agree more than we (at least me?) have realized. I'm guessing there has been some struggle in communicating our ideas, most of this I agree on.
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  2. #272
    Originally Posted by LuckyBide Go to original post
    Yep, well said. We've seen how it could be really easy to deviate from stealth when starting to include mainstream features to make the games more accessible.
    The recent SCs started too neutral. Lots of games do stealth "lite", and it's fine, but this is Splinter Cell. I don't want the equivalent of stealth-flavored water. I want stealth concentrate.
    But I would even say that finding ways and tools to teach stealth is vital to keep the genre alive and moving forward. And that could be done in a smart way with an innovative difficulty system that would give some specific tools, features and advices to players in the easiest difficulty modes that would teach them the core mechanics of the game.
    Yep, and I think that hand-holding features should help new players feel good about stealth instead of apologizing for it.
    These elements that would help new players could be objective indicators, more hints given by Grim, maybe something inspired by "mission stories" from Hitman that would allow players to get closer to the objective. Also the ability to carry more gadgets, and specific gadgets making the environment easier to read and understand for them. Or giving them a new vision mode on the goggles that would work like an Augmented Reality vision and would highlight the main elements in the environment, indicate them the objective location and even allow them to mark enemies.
    I think all of those things could work. Make it easier, but still satisfying.
    Also, maybe even rework the general difficulty settings... "Hard" doesn't mean the same thing in stealth as it does in shooters, but some consider "Easy" an insult...even if it's right for them... lol
    I might not even have a selection, but instead ask the player a few questions and give them appropriate settings. They can always change them later...
    Things that would feel realistic and plausible which would help them to understand how the game and its mechanics work without imposing them on OG hardcore fans/players or modifying their experience because all these elements would be optional or not available in highest difficulty modes.
    Meanwhile in the hardest difficulty modes, the AI would be smarter and more challenging of course but security systems would be harder to foil and new gameplay features would be enabled like NPCs being able to detect blood trails, guards being able to lie and give false information to players during an interrogation in order to trick them, guards having a permanent memory and doing longer & more precise researches in case of suspicion,...
    All these new features only available in the highest difficulty modes would encourage players to crank up the difficulty once they'll understand the core mechanics. Or maybe it would be possible to toggle on or off all these features so players can create a customized experience if they consider that they understood how works the game and don't need these advices anymore. Anyway, make it as the Bushnell's law says : "easy to learn, hard to master".
    Of course all of this would require a huge work on AI, to think the game differently and innovate. But that would be the only way to really redefine stealth, make this genre stand out against other genres using stealth mechanics, while being the best way to teach stealth to newcomers and satisfying veteran stealth players by giving them what they want. That's in my opinion how "accessibility" should be done in Splinter Cell.
    The more I think about it, the more I like the full-custom idea. They've done a lot of that with Valhalla already, so why not Splinter Cell?
    And I agree with you - the AI needs a lot of work. Improvements to detection is fine, but we need more. Stealth games are puzzle games, and without more advanced AI, we're missing out on stealth-focused gameplay opportunities.
    Yeah, it is feasible for some other stealth IPs like MGS for example. But Splinter Cell's original gameplay is too much focused on realism, precision, slowness and patience to get an hybrid and appeal to an audience that is more into action.
    Or if they want to keep it then the best solution would be to replicate what is done with the Forza franchise: create two different series inside of the SC franchise. Forza has one series (Motorsport) that tends to be a simulation and another series (Horizon) which is more casual. And they both have great success and please all type of racing game fans. So I can see Ubisoft make two different series for SC as well, they have the resources to do so because they're a company with a lot of resources. And it would only improve their image and please both types of fans.
    And then Sarah would only be a Splinter Cell in one of them? lol
    I hope they keep the focus, and that development goes well, and that the reception is good.
    By the way to get back to the letter, I'll make a new post today on reddit and focus it on asking to Ubisoft for a collaboration, taking example on what EA Motive is doing with the remake of the first Dead Space game with the community council (at 2:48) : https://youtu.be/4wjPk_DEKRk?t=168
    I love that!
    "...the community council we've created - some hardcore Dead Space fans that remain active even after years of inactivity of the Dead Space franchise."
    Well that sounds familiar...
    And I literally lol'd at "Where does it suck?" I think it's great, though. They know they need honest feedback. If someone's going to love the game no matter what they do, why even ask them? They need to be asking the ones they could lose if they don't do it right.
    Also, the comments on the video are great - so positive. I hope we get that, too!
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  3. #273
    LuckyBide's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by generalbrown02 Go to original post
    I think we agree more than we (at least me?) have realized. I'm guessing there has been some struggle in communicating our ideas, most of this I agree on.
    Yeah I think we do. We just use different terms and ways to express our thoughts, haha.


    Originally Posted by CoastalGirl Go to original post
    The recent SCs started too neutral. Lots of games do stealth "lite", and it's fine, but this is Splinter Cell. I don't want the equivalent of stealth-flavored water. I want stealth concentrate.
    Exactly, that's a good definition. The SC acronym stands for Splinter Cell but also for "Stealth Concentration" !


    Originally Posted by CoastalGirl Go to original post
    Yep, and I think that hand-holding features should help new players feel good about stealth instead of apologizing for it.
    +1

    Originally Posted by CoastalGirl Go to original post
    I think all of those things could work. Make it easier, but still satisfying.
    Also, maybe even rework the general difficulty settings... "Hard" doesn't mean the same thing in stealth as it does in shooters, but some consider "Easy" an insult...even if it's right for them... lol
    I might not even have a selection, but instead ask the player a few questions and give them appropriate settings. They can always change them later...
    I agree. Difficulty in a stealth game can come from way different and various factors, this is why stealth games need a lot of options that can be freely enabled or disabled by players.
    I often take the example of Dishonored 2 and its difficulty settings, this game lets players adjust a lot of parameters: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...let-you-adjust
    I think even more options could be given to players for Splinter Cell, and alongside to that gameplay features/gadgets to help newcomers but also to make OG players experience harder, innovative and more interesting. I would like that each difficulty level would make us feel like we're playing a different experience.
    So yeah here are my two mottos for accessibility: "Teach stealth to newcomers" and "Encourage them to crank up the difficulty level once they understood the core mechanics of the game."


    Originally Posted by CoastalGirl Go to original post
    The more I think about it, the more I like the full-custom idea. They've done a lot of that with Valhalla already, so why not Splinter Cell?
    And I agree with you - the AI needs a lot of work. Improvements to detection is fine, but we need more. Stealth games are puzzle games, and without more advanced AI, we're missing out on stealth-focused gameplay opportunities.
    I think AI should completely be reworked. To me it's the main key to really redefine key and make it evolve. I think we're all fed up of NPCs having a temporary memory that can endlessly be distracted by throwing a rock at the same spot.
    AI in stealth games needs to have a permanent memory and new reactions that would be more realistic and more credible.
    If a studio manage to do this in a stealth game, I guarantee that the game will get a lot of attention in videogame medias and many non-stealth players would be curious to experiment that new AI.


    Originally Posted by CoastalGirl Go to original post
    And then Sarah would only be a Splinter Cell in one of them? lol
    I hope they keep the focus, and that development goes well, and that the reception is good.
    I hope Sarah would never be a Splinter Cell agent in any book, nor any game, nor in any imaginary parallel universe, haha. I genuinely dislike that idea.
    Yes, let's hope !


    Originally Posted by CoastalGirl Go to original post
    I love that!
    "...the community council we've created - some hardcore Dead Space fans that remain active even after years of inactivity of the Dead Space franchise."
    Well that sounds familiar...
    And I literally lol'd at "Where does it suck?" I think it's great, though. They know they need honest feedback. If someone's going to love the game no matter what they do, why even ask them? They need to be asking the ones they could lose if they don't do it right.
    Also, the comments on the video are great - so positive. I hope we get that, too!
    Yeah I felt the same when I heard him. I said to myself "oh that sounds familiar". And when I checked when has been released the last Dead Space game and seen that it also was in 2013, I said "ok, we too need a community council for the SC remake !"
    Reading what Ubisoft Toronto devs said in that blog post and in their tweets, I'm sure they would be open to "brutal" and honest feedback from us. The question is about Ubisoft executives, would they agree with this ?

    "They need to be asking the ones they could lose if they don't do it right." => Well said !
    It's hard to exactly know in details who they could loose with bad decisions but I'm sure that the devs know the main elements and features to keep or get rid of to please the hardcore fanbase.
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  4. #274
    Originally Posted by LuckyBide Go to original post
    Exactly, that's a good definition. The SC acronym stands for Splinter Cell but also for "Stealth Concentration" !
    lol It's not even a joke, though - that is what I want!
    I know that they'll have to make some compromises during development, but if the focus on stealth is maintained, I think we'll get something really good. It may not be everything we want, but I look at it as a first step. As long as they head in the right direction, I'll be there waiting with cookies.
    I agree. Difficulty in a stealth game can come from way different and various factors, this is why stealth games need a lot of options that can be freely enabled or disabled by players.
    I often take the example of Dishonored 2 and its difficulty settings, this game lets players adjust a lot of parameters: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...let-you-adjust
    I think even more options could be given to players for Splinter Cell, and alongside to that gameplay features/gadgets to help newcomers but also to make OG players experience harder, innovative and more interesting. I would like that each difficulty level would make us feel like we're playing a different experience.
    So yeah here are my two mottos for accessibility: "Teach stealth to newcomers" and "Encourage them to crank up the difficulty level once they understood the core mechanics of the game."
    I like that. Plus, even I don't always play on hard mode, or only ghost. I even liked enabling cheats in Manhunt (after all the work it took to unlock said cheats, it was really satisfying to god-mode through sections where I'd died so many times lol).
    I think AI should completely be reworked. To me it's the main key to really redefine key and make it evolve. I think we're all fed up of NPCs having a temporary memory that can endlessly be distracted by throwing a rock at the same spot.
    AI in stealth games needs to have a permanent memory and new reactions that would be more realistic and more credible.
    If a studio manage to do this in a stealth game, I guarantee that the game will get a lot of attention in videogame medias and many non-stealth players would be curious to experiment that new AI.
    I agree. Real advancements to AI would be massive across the industry, and be well worth the effort to develop. Stealth is the perfect genre for that, because we see so much more. We're not shooting enemies before their crummy AI has a chance to show, they're with us the whole time. We see it all.
    The AI ties in really well with difficulty, too, in multiple ways. Perception and memory, certainly, but to approach an encounter and have even more things to consider, such as the temperament of a guard that needs distracting, is the kind of increased challenge I want.
    I hope Sarah would never be a Splinter Cell agent in any book, nor any game, nor in any imaginary parallel universe, haha. I genuinely dislike that idea.
    Sarah needs to go back to art school. Or was she studying history? Art history? I don't remember now... lol
    Yeah I felt the same when I heard him. I said to myself "oh that sounds familiar". And when I checked when has been released the last Dead Space game and seen that it also was in 2013, I said "ok, we too need a community council for the SC remake !"
    Reading what Ubisoft Toronto devs said in that blog post and in their tweets, I'm sure they would be open to "brutal" and honest feedback from us. The question is about Ubisoft executives, would they agree with this ?
    I would hope so. This whole remake situation is unlike anything we've seen, but they can't just announce it and then go dark. They've said the right things and the fan response has been great, so they don't have to be afraid.
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  5. #275
    LuckyBide's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by CoastalGirl Go to original post
    lol It's not even a joke, though - that is what I want!
    I know that they'll have to make some compromises during development, but if the focus on stealth is maintained, I think we'll get something really good. It may not be everything we want, but I look at it as a first step. As long as they head in the right direction, I'll be there waiting with cookies.
    Agreed at 100%, a lot of us want that !
    And for sure they couldn't implement everything we want but if they plan to use the remake as a solid base for the future of Splinter Cell, then I could easily see them copy what IOI does with Hitman: having new features coming later with the remakes of PT and CT, and the remake of SAR will be updated and include these new features.


    Originally Posted by CoastalGirl Go to original post
    I agree. Real advancements to AI would be massive across the industry, and be well worth the effort to develop. Stealth is the perfect genre for that, because we see so much more. We're not shooting enemies before their crummy AI has a chance to show, they're with us the whole time. We see it all.
    The AI ties in really well with difficulty, too, in multiple ways. Perception and memory, certainly, but to approach an encounter and have even more things to consider, such as the temperament of a guard that needs distracting, is the kind of increased challenge I want.
    Exactly, we have to constantly deal with AI in stealth games. This genre is one of the most appropriate ones for AI innovation.
    And guards temperament could be extended to interrogations as well. A more experienced soldier would obviously be less predisposed to give the player information than a simple parking guard, but he even would be able to lie to players, giving him a wrong information in order to trick them.


    Originally Posted by CoastalGirl Go to original post
    Sarah needs to go back to art school. Or was she studying history? Art history? I don't remember now... lol
    I went to check on wikia and she "majored in International Relations with a minor in Art History" ^^


    Originally Posted by CoastalGirl Go to original post
    I would hope so. This whole remake situation is unlike anything we've seen, but they can't just announce it and then go dark. They've said the right things and the fan response has been great, so they don't have to be afraid.
    Yes, it started very well as you say. So now let's hope they will take advantage of that momentum, accept and understand that a close collaboration would benefit everyone and the game first and foremost.
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  6. #276
    LuckyBide's Avatar Senior Member
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    PS: A quick update about the letter. We've just reached 500 supporters : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...TFF7IqT7zm5wM/

    It has been hard and long to reach that point, I don't think we'll get way more supporters from the SC subreddit now. Very very few people came from the Splinter Cell groups on Facebook and the Splinter Cell discord channels, which is a shame since there are a lot of people there.
    Many other subreddits just deleted the posts or don't allow external links so not a lot of people had the chance to see it and read the full letter by themselves.
    Anyway now is the time to reach some Youtubers, I will contact them on Twitter and let you know if one of them replies.

    By the way I wanted to thank borkh1 from the Splinter Cell subreddit who helped me and supported me doing posts on reddit
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  7. #277
    Originally Posted by LuckyBide Go to original post
    Agreed at 100%, a lot of us want that !
    And for sure they couldn't implement everything we want but if they plan to use the remake as a solid base for the future of Splinter Cell, then I could easily see them copy what IOI does with Hitman: having new features coming later with the remakes of PT and CT, and the remake of SAR will be updated and include these new features.
    I think that'd be ideal. The first needs to be functional and clean, realistically ambitious, and lay the groundwork for the future.

    Exactly, we have to constantly deal with AI in stealth games. This genre is one of the most appropriate ones for AI innovation.
    And guards temperament could be extended to interrogations as well. A more experienced soldier would obviously be less predisposed to give the player information than a simple parking guard, but he even would be able to lie to players, giving him a wrong information in order to trick them.
    That could definitely get interesting. If you were interrogating a guard and they gave you the wrong code, it could set off an alarm, and bring more guards... It goes into that idea of gameplay influencing the game, too.

    I went to check on wikia and she "majored in International Relations with a minor in Art History" ^^
    Wow, I completely missed the "International Relations" part...I wonder if that was always a thing and I just glossed over it to make her an art nerd... Oh well, as far as I'm concerned, she still is one. lol

    Yes, it started very well as you say. So now let's hope they will take advantage of that momentum, accept and understand that a close collaboration would benefit everyone and the game first and foremost.
    They definitely know we're a valuable resource, it's just figuring out how to make it work. It's been successful elsewhere, and not just for the games, but the "relationship" between the devs/company and the players, too. We kind of need that.

    Originally Posted by LuckyBide Go to original post
    PS: A quick update about the letter. We've just reached 500 supporters :
    Congrats on that! Truly, it's quite an accomplishment, especially for a "dormant" game, and your commitment to it is much appreciated.
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  8. #278
    LuckyBide's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by CoastalGirl Go to original post
    I think that'd be ideal. The first needs to be functional and clean, realistically ambitious, and lay the groundwork for the future.
    Yes. I hope devs are building the remake with his in mind, and hopefully the Snowdrop Engine will allow this.


    Originally Posted by CoastalGirl Go to original post
    That could definitely get interesting. If you were interrogating a guard and they gave you the wrong code, it could set off an alarm, and bring more guards... It goes into that idea of gameplay influencing the game, too.
    I like that example. Guards having a same common code that would trigger the alarm (or even a silent alarm) if the code is used anywhere. That would not only encourage players to be more cautious but also to explore a bit more to make sure that the information given by the guard is true.


    Originally Posted by CoastalGirl Go to original post
    Wow, I completely missed the "International Relations" part...I wonder if that was always a thing and I just glossed over it to make her an art nerd... Oh well, as far as I'm concerned, she still is one. lol
    Yeah haha it doesn't matter, she has been not been trained to be a Splinter Cell agent and I'll stick with that as well


    Originally Posted by CoastalGirl Go to original post
    They definitely know we're a valuable resource, it's just figuring out how to make it work. It's been successful elsewhere, and not just for the games, but the "relationship" between the devs/company and the players, too. We kind of need that.
    Yes. It's one of the good things that early access brought in, that close and productive relationship between devs and fans. Of course sometimes it doesn't work but we had some good examples that proved or proving that it works, and the most famous one that I have in mind is Hitman back in 2016.
    If Ubisoft Toronto devs accept to talk with us about the nature of that collaboration, I'm sure we'll find the best and more balanced solution that would make happy everyone.


    Originally Posted by CoastalGirl Go to original post
    Congrats on that! Truly, it's quite an accomplishment, especially for a "dormant" game, and your commitment to it is much appreciated.
    Thank you very much, but congratulations too to all of those like you who participated into the writing of this letter.
    I honestly wished that we would had a bit more supporters at this date (like 700/800 supporters), also because I've seen some people not wanting to sign because there wasn't enough supporters. But considering all the blockages that we had (mostly inside the Splinter Cell "community"), I guess that yeah, 500 supporters is quite a good accomplishment and hopefully it will help to convince Ubisoft Toronto developers.
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  9. #279
    LuckyBide's Avatar Senior Member
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    P.S. : A small update about the letter. We now reached 600 supporters : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...TFF7IqT7zm5wM/

    Some small grammar and vocabulary tweaks have been suggested by a reddit member called RDPCG to make look the update more professional, a big thanks to him !

    I'm still waiting for an answer from Youtubers, so far they didn't read their DMs yet. This weekend I'll send them tweets and if they still don't reply then next week I'll send through their business email. It's not ideal and I don't want to bother them using that email address but if that's the only way to reach them, we would not have the choice :/

    Now about a very important point. We have now to think and prepare the most important step : sending the letter to Ubisoft. I talk about this in advance so hopefully people who don't come often on the forums like NoviceGuy and BoBwUzHeRe1138 can have time to see it and give their opinion.

    Since I have the possibility to send a DM on twitter to Chris Auty (the creative director of the remake), I think it's the best way to make sure that the letter will be read by the development team. And if after some time he didn't read the DM then we can talk about it to Zack.
    Now about the content of that DM: do you think we should put some specific things in it ? Add something more than isn't in the letter ? Do we make it short or do we explain how all of this happened ?
    Let me know what you think.
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  10. #280
    I don't think I would go much beyond what's in the letter. I think they've read it (and probably this whole thread, too lol). The response part remains the tricky thing, given how things work currently. I suppose that could be a question in a DM...how would the approval process for something like that work? Who would handle it?

    Just because something isn't normally done, doesn't mean it can't be done (talking about Ubi specifically, given we know it happens elsewhere). Sometimes you have to work your way up until you reach someone who can authorize a change.
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