Member
I was absolutely not advocating the 'evenly spaced in strategic locations' 40 man tango missions, not by a long chalk, just in case anyone was confused as to my position. Due to the breaking of the game mechanic, it necessitated such an approach because by abandoning some of the more realistic aspects of room clearing and counter terrorism, the tangoes HAVE to be spread out in order for their pacification to be manageable.
I fully agree with Dayglow that tension resides in not only the threat of tangoes, but the random placement thereof. Tension should be Rainbow Six's middle name. Rainbow 'tension' Six, if you like. Having tangoes jump out repeatedly, or in huge numbers, means that they have to be weakened in order for them not to over power the player - they are weakened not only in the sense that they have sub-standard AI, but also they lack the realistic traits of tango behaviour (such as just fleeing and/or moving to a better and more consolidated position, detonation/suicide with grenades or otheer explosives, the murder of hostages, using hostages as shields, calling for support, surrendering and the such like). Weaken the tangoes... masses of them... behaving homogenously like paper targets... Sounds like Lockdown.
In effect, you become desensitised to tango combat in Lockdown, because not only are there so many of them, but they are ineffective and so predictable in their location and behaviour. Contrast with moving through the Fairfax residence in SWAT4, where the suspect could be in any number of locations (in fact, there's a random additional perp in there, too), where the tango could be anywhere. That was intense - but painfully slow. Now, while a counter-terrorist raid is a loud, fast, maelstrom of action, there is still always that frightening prospect of action. Flashbanging an empty room and storming it is just as tense as clearing a room with a tango in it because you don't know if he's there. Make the adrenaline pump, make the sweat pour down the foreheads, make the player realise that once that first breaching charge goes off, and when that first shot is fired, ANYTHING can happen and it's much as anyone can do to keep a handle on the situation. The professionalism of special forces in genuinely terrifying and chaotic environments is something R6 could really do well to impress upon the player. Again, immersion, through realistic portrayal of tactics, wins the day.
I have to admit, my preferred configuration of mission would be one where various support units could be called into action, such as a sniper (kitted out and placed by the player, of course, no 'Sierra 1' here), and a building containing 15 or so tangoes who have taken up residence, with hostages. The entry points would be multiple and at different levels, using a variety of methods, with the prospect of a stealthy approach AND a full balls to the wind assault. 90% of the tangoes would be randomly placed, the hostages in the same place roughly 70% of the time (depending on the quality of the mission's intel, of course. The less intel, the more random the placement), or even moving them around at different times, with terrorists performing patrol routines as well as doing other random tasks (such as toilet visits, that sort of thing - just an example, but smoking and the such like should feature equally). The mission would be executed with 3 teams, plus support units, all under various orders specified in planning BUT flexible enough to be scratched and modified should things go FUBAR - hard to implement, I know, but here's a suggestion.
In planning, we choose our teams and their kit. We look at a rough/detailed map of the mission (depending on intel) and choose insertion points AND METHODS for said teams (such as fast rope, rapelling, or just on foot). When it comes to breaching the building, we can choose a variety of methods, such as detonation of diversionary charges and breach, blowing out the doors/windows, picking the locks, sledghammering a window in, shotgunning the hinges out... you get the picture - all of course depending on the team in question's kit. From then on, the orders are simply 'clear the floor' in a variety of methods (with different ROEs and speed). The AI should be able to calculate when each tactical aid should NOT be used, such as a frag in a room full of hostages. On the map is an objective marker pointing out hostages. At that point, the next order is 'wait for go code' or simply assault (in a variety of methods, some outlined above). In addition to the regular orders there should 'escort hostages to extraction' taking the hostages through an appropriate exit route.
So what you have is a map with a series of 'hotspots' in which you can place teams and specify how they assault. Not only would this simplify planning to the extent that you wouldn't NEED to put down waypoints, as they already exist in a skeleton sense you just need to put teams to them, but the AI would eliminate the vast majority of tedious refinement needed to produce a decent plan. The plans should have a varying number of hotspots depending upon the complexity of the operation, further operations having more opportunity for technical but non-the-less easy to instantiate plans. It should ideally make the player have to think about tactics, but not have to spend tedious hours laying down waypoints in every room they want cleared.
The side effect of having random tango placement is that it necessitates not only caution but also the clearing of every room in a structure. In Rainbows of old, you simply clear the rooms you know to be tangoes in and move in as quick a line as possible to the hostages. In a game of random tango placement, the 'clear floor' order of the AI would be paramount as it wouldn't matter in what order the rooms were cleared (within reason) as you'd inevitably need to clear them all ANYWAY.
Junior Member
That was a very interesting read bringing back fantastic memories. I feel i have to agree with
KungFu_CIA
quote:
One major cause is the rise of so-called E-Sports and Person vs. Person (Multiplayer) competitive video gaming.
I think this has resulted in a gradual removal of skill from the game, as a there are a smaller percentage of people who have the patience to successfully plan, prepare and execute a mission. I feel this fact is reflected by the current state of RvS servers, i.e plenty of adversarial servers as a pose to human cooperative efforts.
If you look at the recent releases Lockdown, Raven Shield (to a certain extent) and even Ghost Recon - Advanced Warfighter, they are all designed for a blast with no skill.
I long for the day Ubi soft will return to the original formula that made R6 so involving, but until then i will just have to make do with Rogue Spear - Black Thorn.
Junior Member
I agree. However, something as simple as the team control in Ghost Recon, where you click on the map and tell a team to go here or do that, or wait for an order, would work just fine. Include that with the current RVS "point to a door and tell the team to open it" type quick commands and all will be fine.Originally posted by DayGlow:
it's my opinion, on RvS. The planning stage came down to trial and error until you hit that magical point of findind the 'solution' and the AI not screwing it up.
When I look at the planning stage, it's unrealistic to have a full blueprint of a building, then map out each waypoint for a team to move on, and have zero devation from. That's not how it works in RL and if that's what the planning stage is, IMHO I can do without it. I'd rather have better tactical AI and control in room clearing and splitting of a smaller squad for more dynamic events under my control.
My dream planning stage would be to basically tell team 2 to assualt from the NE corner and work towards an objective, wait for a go-code, then storm the objective area. Then the AI figure out the best way of doing it, where to go, etc. This won't happen as AI is not there yet.
Personally choicing between rigid lifeless planning vs expanded squad control, I'd pick expanded squad control. My dream would be to have at least 5 AI under your control, so it can be split into 2 teams with a cover man for yourself. From there you can split them for takedowns of rooms or to cover areas while you work another, etc. It would be more like RL in my opinion.
Member
Defuser that 1st post is the most insightful post I've read in any forum ever. From start to finish.A dream R6 game would be one in which it is recognised that people who play tactical games find the combination of tactics and the authenticity of the atmosphere generated therein to be the most immersive and exciting environment. We don't need Hollywood back-chat. We don't need nicknames and dual-wielding. We don't need big bad guys with monobrows. We don't need clichéd personalities. We don't need outrageous accents and personalised armour with unique armpatches (in singleplayer) and we especially don't need ARGUING.
There is no more an immersive atmosphere than when the APPROPRIATE and realistic military terms are used and also where the operators with you behave professionally and REALISTICALLY. It has always been the realism of the surroundings, the terrorists motives and their behaviour that made the R6s so involving and impressive to play.
I copied the above paragraphs just for Ubisoft's sake. Here's a clue guys.
Sorry that's all I have to add to the discussion, it's 0530, I'm too tired and I type way too slow.
Great thread!!
