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  1. #1

    Fixing up Kyoshin

    This thread serves as a direct follow up to my prior one I released yesterday which you can read if you need to understand his issues:https://forums.ubisoft.com/showthrea...ase-Zhanhu-2-0 The goal of this thread is to more or less condense the problems stated before by listing changes to solve most of those problems. The list will start out with bugs (both confirmed and believed to be bugs,) then into fixes that need to happen. And it will close out with suggestions to deal with some of his more nuanced problems on a kit level.


    Bugs:

    -Kyoshin's forward bash bounces off of players causing him to be out of range if the bash comes into contact with any forward movement from his opponent.

    -Kyoshin's Kaze stance light has 0ms of GB vulnerability.

    -Kyoshin can flicker indicators with his Kaze stance.

    -Kyoshin's out of lock attacks have faster chain link times.

    -Kyoshin's recovery cancels for his regular attacks (on whiff/hit/block) are 567ms instead of 400ms.

    -Kyoshin's chain link times are 367ms in all instances. Should be 200ms across the board.

    -Kyoshin's left chain heavy can cause the screen to bug out and temp show your screen inside some geometry.

    -All of Kaze stance attacks including feinting the unblockable into GB can be dodged on a single timing of early dodging.


    Mandatory changes:

    -Fujin cuts stamina dropped from 6 each to 3 each.

    -Damage from CC Kaze stance attacks should retain their normal attack values (10 for zone, 12 for light, 15 for heavy) instead of being 8, 8, 10 respectively.

    -Stamina cost of blocking attacks in stance should be reduced. Light takes 13, medium takes 25, heavy takes 34. Instead it should be 6, 12, 17.

    -Stamina cost of zone should be reduced. Currently 40. Reduced to 20.

    -Kyoshin can now chain off of his whiffed forward dodge bash. Recoveries stay the same.

    -Recovery to CGB for mid chain bash changed from 800ms to 700ms.

    -Mid chain bash given more range and tracking.

    -Mid chain bash follow up is now target swappable.

    -Kaze stance CC light hitbox changed to now hit both in front and the right side of him (think BP's bulwark slash but with less total reach.)

    -Kaze stance CC zone should hit front, back, and left. (think Zhanhu zone but less total reach)

    -Fujin force heavy now has more range and tracking and hits the same hitbox area as Kaze stance CC light.

    -Kaze stance zone is now undodgable.


    Potential changes:

    (should note these suggestions are on an individual basis. Not to say he should get all of these buffs together.)

    -Kyoshin can now dodge cancel out of his stance. (this is to address his issue with lacking a way to deal with bashes and unblockables in stance.)

    -Kyoshin can now flow into his stance from fujin cuts including his third hit as well as kaze stance hits. (This is to make his combo system more dynamic.)

    -Kyoshin can now chain into his mid chain bash after landing/blocking/whiffing a Kaze stance attack. (This is to make his Kaze stance more dynamic.)

    -Kaze stance now works on unblockable attacks. (as an alternative if dodging out of his stance isn't in the cards.)


    Think that wraps up my own personal suggestions as well as what i've heard. In addition to the bug fixes and mandatory changes i'd personally opt to let him dodge cancel out of his stance over letting him counter unblockables since that seems less dev intensive and it retains BP's uniqueness of being able to counter all attacks. I'd also rather he be able to flow into his stance more than giving him access to his bash more often. As I think that still improves his general gameplay still without potentially being confusing for newer/causal players who might get confused on his chain flow.

    Some have suggested giving him armor on his Kaze stance follow ups (specifically if you CC) similar to how Mushu has with his SB follow ups. However I don't inherently think being able to easily interrupt him via stuffing or GBing him once he commits to fujin lights. Rather I think the issue here is because his stance attacks/CC stance attacks have bad hitboxes. If they were fixed you would be very likely to hit people away from you. Thus making the stance better in anti gank/team fights like it should be without just letting him ignore being attacked some what. It would still allow people to avoid the attack and punish him anyway which I think is fair counter play. Anyway, let me know what you think or if you have questions about any of what I posted. Thanks for reading.
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  2. #2
    Raime I personally don't agree with the changes to full block attack damage and stamina changes you have proposed. Conqs full block does 20 damage and eats quite a bit of his stamina I'm the process. Kyoshins full block is better than conqs by quite a bit, and I feel the high stam cost is necessary to not be an outright oppressor.

    I'd agree with the zone stam change if nearly all other zones had reduced stam too. But they currently don't.

    Just my own thoughts though.
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  3. #3
    Personally I would like for him to enter his full block faster as if I'm not mistaken it takes quite a while to enter from neutral making it pretty much impossible to full block on reaction. I also feel flowing in to his full block from fujin cuts would be a bit strong so I'm just gonna throw out an alternative, though I don't know if it would be any good but instead slow down fujin force by 100 ms make it feintable and be able to come from any direction.
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  4. #4
    Originally Posted by Chump94 Go to original post
    Personally I would like for him to enter his full block faster as if I'm not mistaken it takes quite a while to enter from neutral making it pretty much impossible to full block on reaction. I also feel flowing in to his full block from fujin cuts would be a bit strong so I'm just gonna throw out an alternative, though I don't know if it would be any good but instead slow down fujin force by 100 ms make it feintable and be able to come from any direction.
    I think that's intended though. If he could enter full block immediately and also immediately attack, at least currently you could enter full block on indicator, and if they feint to gb, you do his light follow up on reaction. With aramusha you're taking a gamble on all neutral attacks with no options for attack. In this case he would be untouchable.
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  5. #5
    I don't think Kyoshins stance lite having gb 0 vulnerability is a bug and is intentional. It works the same way as Warlords full block heavy, unless that's a bug too which I doubt.
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  6. #6
    Originally Posted by deathtocakl Go to original post
    Raime I personally don't agree with the changes to full block attack damage and stamina changes you have proposed. Conqs full block does 20 damage and eats quite a bit of his stamina I'm the process. Kyoshins full block is better than conqs by quite a bit, and I feel the high stam cost is necessary to not be an outright oppressor.

    I'd agree with the zone stam change if nearly all other zones had reduced stam too. But they currently don't.

    Just my own thoughts though.
    The problem with that comparison though is that conq's full block is a situational punish tool. Kaze stance is both a punish tool and an offensive one. Maybe cutting back the stamina cost for both blocking and his stance cuts is too much. But I do think some parts of his stance need stamina cost reduction. Maybe his kaze stance attacks if they superior block don't cost stamina themselves but the blocking still does. I'm going to have to insist that fujin cuts still get a cost reduction. Those moves already do barely any damage, can be GBed externally on reaction, and leave you FD if you commit to the third light. I personally think it's absurd that he can go OOS frequently from trying to mix using his stance.

    I reduced the cost of his zone on the assumption that OS's will be removed coming next season. Even if we were waiting for longer than that his zone is a combo starter. It shouldn't be as expensive as it is.
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  7. #7
    Originally Posted by Chump94 Go to original post
    Personally I would like for him to enter his full block faster as if I'm not mistaken it takes quite a while to enter from neutral making it pretty much impossible to full block on reaction. I also feel flowing in to his full block from fujin cuts would be a bit strong so I'm just gonna throw out an alternative, though I don't know if it would be any good but instead slow down fujin force by 100 ms make it feintable and be able to come from any direction.
    You're not supposed to be able to block on reaction from neutral. The start up is only 100ms more compared to other FBS. So you should still be able to FB heavies. Just not any attack on indicator. Fujin force is 600ms atm so making it 700ms and feintable seems weird. idk if it could even be made feintable but i'm not sure I like the idea of having a heavy you can toss at with a large delay window and 300ms of all direction superior block also be feintable.

    Originally Posted by LightUpTheEyes Go to original post
    I don't think Kyoshins stance lite having gb 0 vulnerability is a bug and is intentional. It works the same way as Warlords full block heavy, unless that's a bug too which I doubt.
    The information hub doesn't note Warlord having 0ms gb vulnerability on his stance heavy. Every attack in the game is supposed to have at least 100ms of GB vulnerability. So it's entirely possible that you're stuffing GB's with it thanks to trying to GB in the window of 100ms is difficult. But it's definitely not intentional to have 0gb vulnerability for any move.
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