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  1. #31
    Originally Posted by Jazz117Volkov Go to original post
    My experience with Kyoshin is he's really dull to fight against. I'm still learning the what's and what not's, but it seems to be a very flick-lights-at-you kit, but he's also bloated with every defensive option, so it's a chore to press buttons against him. Otherwise he seems kind of meh.
    I mean yeah pressing buttons against someone who has access to superior block very frequently is just going to be a bad time. Most kits these days either have a bash or an unblockable though so you just need to learn how to bully him from using the stance defensively that way. As the stance has no response to either thing and he cannot exit the stance in time to parry or dodge.

    Alternatively if the Kyoshin is being too stylish and "fast flowing" into his stance often feel free to start stuffing him more. Thanks to current chain link times he'll only ever trade with his Kaze stance heavy if he lands a fujin force heavy or you block it. And you can stuff his regular chain heavy as well because of poor chain link time.
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  2. #32
    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    Kyoshin has zero answers to deal with bashes let alone unblockables. For a hero that's meant to survive and thrive in a team fight scenario with his stance that's pretty poor. Not even considering the face that his hitboxes are trash for doing any sort of target swapping with said stance. His stance also has zero way to deal with people who early dodge since that trumps all of his attacks from his stance including feint into GB. So he's not a decent anti ganker or team fighter.

    Far as being a "very strong duelist" goes he's not. Again, his stance has no answer to bashes or unblockables. If you go into stance and the opponent makes the reaction to you entering stance they can just unblockable you because you're not going to be able to feint out in time to parry let alone dodge. You can stuff his unblockable mix up from his stance in nearly every situation thanks to his awful chain link times. Hell you can stuff his regular heavies as well because of how bad the chain link times are.

    His chain bash can give a reaction GB even if you eat a light. The forward chain bash is reactable with no mully mix because he lacks a feintable forward dodge attack and another attack to mix with it (like how zhanhu and TG rochi had) and also gives a GB to people who make the reaction dodge. Meaning offensively and defensively he's not strong. He's only a better duelist in name compared to his team fight capabilities because more of his issues actually come into play there.

    Kyoshin is factually very underpowered right now. To claim other wise either means you don't understand his kit as well as you think you do or your grasp on the game's fundamentals is severely lacking.
    But what is the tool against unblockable except parry and dodge ? also, "just unblockable"is a black prior thing, unblockable need openers to come out, openers that need top pass by this fullblock, or whiff which let more than enough time to guess what's coming next

    the forward chain bash is not really reactable, it is predictable, like cent kick, whoever get hit by cent kick except to avoid a potential gb ? I mean, it's not a kyoshin thing, is it even 600ms or something ? It don't look like it. And by the way, you want him to chain after it, but that's not his point. his whole kit is to burst you a few HP and make pauses to push you to "take your turn" and paf : full block, gotcha, that's the point of any full block hero, using the gap in their kit to break the enemy agression.

    I have seen players doing CRAZY things with this full guard right now. The just unblockable is more easy to say than to do, and bashes are a plague for everybody not just Kyo. And the answer to bash, is dodge attack. Just by having a dodge attack, a quick one, it mean he can punish "unpunishable" bashes like bp and conq's ones.

    I don't see where he is weak, and I m not even talking of his "Pick the player you want to kill guys" Button which is at least as noxious as warmo t4 in a 4v4 brawl, and do not even require good placement

    Surely certain hero give Kyoshin trouble, but guess how much hero are in trouble with Kyoshin. You can't say he is "weak" in a general manner it is just not true. His kit is not poorly designed at all, it is a strong hero with his proprer gameplay that work. Or the whole player base ahs just become **** at the game suddenly ? because Kyoshin are doing REALLY good in dominion right now. Yes their new, but then how are you saying that he is weak ? Nothing is confirming this right now, except Kyoshin players own personnal trouble in their learning of the hero
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  3. #33
    Originally Posted by AbuZnood Go to original post
    But what is the tool against unblockable except parry and dodge ? also, "just unblockable"is a black prior thing, unblockable need openers to come out, openers that need top pass by this fullblock, or whiff which let more than enough time to guess what's coming next

    the forward chain bash is not really reactable, it is predictable, like cent kick, whoever get hit by cent kick except to avoid a potential gb ? I mean, it's not a kyoshin thing, is it even 600ms or something ? It don't look like it. And by the way, you want him to chain after it, but that's not his point. his whole kit is to burst you a few HP and make pauses to push you to "take your turn" and paf : full block, gotcha, that's the point of any full block hero, using the gap in their kit to break the enemy agression.

    I have seen players doing CRAZY things with this full guard right now. The just unblockable is more easy to say than to do, and bashes are a plague for everybody not just Kyo. And the answer to bash, is dodge attack. Just by having a dodge attack, a quick one, it mean he can punish "unpunishable" bashes like bp and conq's ones.

    I don't see where he is weak, and I m not even talking of his "Pick the player you want to kill guys" Button which is at least as noxious as warmo t4 in a 4v4 brawl, and do not even require good placement

    Surely certain hero give Kyoshin trouble, but guess how much hero are in trouble with Kyoshin. You can't say he is "weak" in a general manner it is just not true. His kit is not poorly designed at all, it is a strong hero with his proprer gameplay that work. Or the whole player base ahs just become **** at the game suddenly ? because Kyoshin are doing REALLY good in dominion right now. Yes their new, but then how are you saying that he is weak ? Nothing is confirming this right now, except Kyoshin players own personnal trouble in their learning of the hero
    The point about unblockables was strictly speaking about Kaze stance. Because of the time it takes to enter and exit the stance Kyoshin literally cannot exit his stance and parry or dodge. This isn't an issue for anyone else in the game except shaolin. You do realize target swapping is a thing right? People don't have to target Kyoshin with their opener to get to their unblockable chain attack. Kyoshin won't be able to respond to it because of his recoveries. He'd have to make a hard read to leave stance immediately knowing his ally won't peel for him.

    The kick is 100% reactable. If you can't do it that's your problem. Even if it was actually unreactable a GB is still far too much damage for any bash that's not a chargeable bash. Also if you're seriously dodging preemptively to avoid cent kick then my belief in your capabilities has drastically deminished. Also that doesn't counter the chain comment with his bash. Bashes either have a bad recovery but can chain or a good recovery but can't. Any bash that doesn't fall under this is considered bad. The bash is meant to be an opener according to the devs and it fails at doing so.


    I really am curious to see who you think a kyoshin actually is a good match up against. Because the only ones I can think of are objectively bad heros to begin with. Pretty much any hero that's considered to be in meta or comp viable doesn't have a poor match up against him. Where as Kyoshin really struggles against meta heros.


    I don't recall saying his kit was poor. I'm saying he's weak primarily because of numbers issues. Mate I have multiple games where I went 10+ kills with 5 or fewer deaths. I'm not struggling to use his kit. And doing good with a hero doesn't objectively mean they're good or even in a good spot.
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  4. #34
    Originally Posted by AbuZnood Go to original post
    But what is the tool against unblockable except parry and dodge ? also, "just unblockable"is a black prior thing, unblockable need openers to come out, openers that need top pass by this fullblock, or whiff which let more than enough time to guess what's coming next

    the forward chain bash is not really reactable, it is predictable, like cent kick, whoever get hit by cent kick except to avoid a potential gb ? I mean, it's not a kyoshin thing, is it even 600ms or something ? It don't look like it. And by the way, you want him to chain after it, but that's not his point. his whole kit is to burst you a few HP and make pauses to push you to "take your turn" and paf : full block, gotcha, that's the point of any full block hero, using the gap in their kit to break the enemy agression.

    I have seen players doing CRAZY things with this full guard right now. The just unblockable is more easy to say than to do, and bashes are a plague for everybody not just Kyo. And the answer to bash, is dodge attack. Just by having a dodge attack, a quick one, it mean he can punish "unpunishable" bashes like bp and conq's ones.

    I don't see where he is weak, and I m not even talking of his "Pick the player you want to kill guys" Button which is at least as noxious as warmo t4 in a 4v4 brawl, and do not even require good placement

    Surely certain hero give Kyoshin trouble, but guess how much hero are in trouble with Kyoshin. You can't say he is "weak" in a general manner it is just not true. His kit is not poorly designed at all, it is a strong hero with his proprer gameplay that work. Or the whole player base ahs just become **** at the game suddenly ? because Kyoshin are doing REALLY good in dominion right now. Yes their new, but then how are you saying that he is weak ? Nothing is confirming this right now, except Kyoshin players own personnal trouble in their learning of the hero

    He still needs to be fixed , his hitboxes are a disadvantage , his recovery is sloooooow , most of his kit can be dodged and is actually quite easy to dodge , he doesnt do any external damage unless the other enemy is withing 7 inches reach , he is slow in general , cant leave kaze stance cause it takes Years... and there is maaaaany more issues ... those flaws are just to big to be ignored ...
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  5. #35
    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    The point about unblockables was strictly speaking about Kaze stance. Because of the time it takes to enter and exit the stance Kyoshin literally cannot exit his stance and parry or dodge. This isn't an issue for anyone else in the game except shaolin. You do realize target swapping is a thing right? People don't have to target Kyoshin with their opener to get to their unblockable chain attack. Kyoshin won't be able to respond to it because of his recoveries. He'd have to make a hard read to leave stance immediately knowing his ally won't peel for him.

    The kick is 100% reactable. If you can't do it that's your problem. Even if it was actually unreactable a GB is still far too much damage for any bash that's not a chargeable bash. Also if you're seriously dodging preemptively to avoid cent kick then my belief in your capabilities has drastically deminished. Also that doesn't counter the chain comment with his bash. Bashes either have a bad recovery but can chain or a good recovery but can't. Any bash that doesn't fall under this is considered bad. The bash is meant to be an opener according to the devs and it fails at doing so.


    I really am curious to see who you think a kyoshin actually is a good match up against. Because the only ones I can think of are objectively bad heros to begin with. Pretty much any hero that's considered to be in meta or comp viable doesn't have a poor match up against him. Where as Kyoshin really struggles against meta heros.


    I don't recall saying his kit was poor. I'm saying he's weak primarily because of numbers issues. Mate I have multiple games where I went 10+ kills with 5 or fewer deaths. I'm not struggling to use his kit. And doing good with a hero doesn't objectively mean they're good or even in a good spot.
    You know, trying to be disrepectful toward people you debate with does not make you llook more intelligent, on the contrary it reinforce the impression that you are a stubborn childish person who don't have that much of an argument, and claim to have the bigger d*ck to give the impression that he won the debate. This or a frustrated person who naturally throw some disrespectful poke in his narative, at some point that it has become a natural way to express himself for him and do not even realise it anymore. And that may not be of importance on the internet, but in real life you will learn the hard way that mutual respect is not an option between people.

    In addition to the fact that I never said that I was dodging preventively cent's kick, so you just jump on your own conclusions because they are hitching you and it need to be said whatso ever, another sign of immaturity.

    But whatever, I do not know why was I drowning in this pointless discussion in the first place. If you have interesting feedbacks to give about Kyoshin do not hesitate ton contact the qualified persons about it which will certainly make better use of these informations than the humble players of these forum such as I am.

    And good riddance !
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  6. #36
    Originally Posted by AbuZnood Go to original post
    You know, trying to be disrepectful toward people you debate with does not make you llook more intelligent, on the contrary it reinforce the impression that you are a stubborn childish person who don't have that much of an argument, and claim to have the bigger d*ck to give the impression that he won the debate. This or a frustrated person who naturally throw some disrespectful poke in his narative, at some point that it has become a natural way to express himself for him and do not even realise it anymore. And that may not be of importance on the internet, but in real life you will learn the hard way that mutual respect is not an option between people.

    In addition to the fact that I never said that I was dodging preventively cent's kick, so you just jump on your own conclusions because they are hitching you and it need to be said whatso ever, another sign of immaturity.

    But whatever, I do not know why was I drowning in this pointless discussion in the first place. If you have interesting feedbacks to give about Kyoshin do not hesitate ton contact the qualified persons about it which will certainly make better use of these informations than the humble players of these forum such as I am.

    And good riddance !
    wait a sec ? what part of that was Disrespectful ?
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  7. #37
    Originally Posted by RobAaronCross Go to original post
    wait a sec ? what part of that was Disrespectful ?
    He was low-key called bad because he can't react to a slow bash.
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  8. #38
    Originally Posted by AbuZnood Go to original post
    You know, trying to be disrepectful toward people you debate with does not make you llook more intelligent, on the contrary it reinforce the impression that you are a stubborn childish person who don't have that much of an argument, and claim to have the bigger d*ck to give the impression that he won the debate. This or a frustrated person who naturally throw some disrespectful poke in his narative, at some point that it has become a natural way to express himself for him and do not even realise it anymore. And that may not be of importance on the internet, but in real life you will learn the hard way that mutual respect is not an option between people.

    In addition to the fact that I never said that I was dodging preventively cent's kick, so you just jump on your own conclusions because they are hitching you and it need to be said whatso ever, another sign of immaturity.

    But whatever, I do not know why was I drowning in this pointless discussion in the first place. If you have interesting feedbacks to give about Kyoshin do not hesitate ton contact the qualified persons about it which will certainly make better use of these informations than the humble players of these forum such as I am.

    And good riddance !
    Alright so let me be clear. When I tell you that your capabilities or game knowledge are limited i'm not personally attacking you. I'm telling you that the reason you're not understanding the problems i've outlined is because you need to improve. It's not going to matter if I give you the numbers on why it's currently possible to throw a light to stuff his chain heavy after Kyoshin hits you with a light. Or if I give you the numbers that explains that dodging an opening light from Kyoshin can give you a GB even if he decides to chain into another combo attack. It's information you can't wrap your brain around because you either don't play at a level where stuff like this is relevant or you don't watch players who play at that level.

    Being ignorant of something isn't an insult and it's not my fault if that's how you react to it. I'm not responsible for how you choose to act on what's being told to you. I can only try to explain my points. Which i've done both times i've talked to you here and at best you've skipped over the explanations. At worst you misunderstand what's being said and try to give an argument that doesn't act as a counter point. (ex you trying to counter the argument about chaining after a whiffed dash kick.)

    As for the Cent kick thing goes you stated "the forward chain bash is not really reactable, it is predictable, like cent kick, whoever get hit by cent kick except to avoid a potential gb ?"
    If you weren't talking about dodging Cent kick and getting GBed because of said dodge then i'm not sure what you meant. I am starting to believe English isn't your first language. That would explain why some of your responses look the way they do.

    I can and have made threads talking about Kyoshin's current state and what i'd do to buff him.
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  9. #39
    King_of_Xibalba's Avatar Senior Member
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    English is not abu´s first language I remember.

    Also he is a beginner compared to most of us, homever he grasped the basics very well I recall, he even defended gryphon not being OP as many noobs were saying, with good arguments.

    For the matter I bought kyoshin, he is not bad as jorm, but against some chars he is very weak, if anything he is still fun to play, he can be repaired no doubt. Is only annoying when you are vs 4 of them.

    There are good players that are extremely capable of using him well, i´m sure Abu crossed paths with them,I also fought some of this kind, I needed my warlord main to actually win against them not even my PK , barak and freeze said he is not strong but he is not a failed design as Jorm, only needs various tweaks.

    I know about his weird numbers and weakneses, I think I noted all this in the first 30 minutes, but still I think he is fun, IDK is weird.
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