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  1. #1

    Ganks eat too much HP, and here's a solution

    Ez fix for ganking in 4s: if you have 1 tag, damage is normal. If you have 2 tags, you have 20% damage reduction. If you have 3, 40%, and if you have 4, 60%. Attacks that would deal 30 damage would now deal 24, 18 or 12 damage depending of the ganking situation. That is not high damage at all and the issue is fixed.
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  2. #2
    They should just introduce 100% friendly fire finally. Or try it with 50 if that is too much for first.
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  3. #3
    Gaser.'s Avatar Senior Member
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    You are aware that after the third hit and every hit after that in gank already reduces the dmg.


    Also why are you getting ganked in the first place?

    Maybe team up or not solo rush, being outnumbered is most of the time because of a mistake on your side.
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  4. #4
    Originally Posted by Gaser. Go to original post
    You are aware that after the third hit and every hit after that in gank already reduces the dmg.


    Also why are you getting ganked in the first place?

    Maybe team up or not solo rush, being outnumbered is most of the time because of a mistake on your side.
    I did it based on this vid: https://youtu.be/YSsx39zeSOk?t=171

    I put exact moment he starts to talk about ganks.
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  5. #5
    Originally Posted by Gaser. Go to original post
    You are aware that after the third hit and every hit after that in gank already reduces the dmg.


    Also why are you getting ganked in the first place?

    Maybe team up or not solo rush, being outnumbered is most of the time because of a mistake on your side.
    The suggestion is in place because it's attempting to tackle a problem that creeps up if OS's are removed.

    If you're not keen on watching the video i'll break it down simple.

    Option selects are annoying to deal with as a whole in single pick/duel scenarios. Them being gone debatably makes offense better/more encouraged.

    Removing option selects in group fight/anti gank scenarios basically cuts down your defensive options to basically nothing. Because it's harder to defend yourself in these scenarios damage lands much more often.

    If you look in dominion there's a lot of situations where high damaging attacks exist be it with or without help from feats. We already have very lethal ganks and have had them for sometime. But removing OS's removes much of your ability to defend against them. This resulted in people on TG getting blown up constantly.

    So you've got two issues that crop up here. The first being a lack of decent defensive options from external situations. And overall damage now being considered too high again. Assuming the devs don't have the resources to or simply don't want to create more defensive options that leaves us with damage. If we lower damage to more "fair" values this will cause fights to last even longer than they currently do just at base. But this lower damage would also give more time for people to rotate in off spawn. Thus causing even more drawn out fights. Which is a problem.


    The proposed suggestion would be to give temporary damage reduction when you've got revenge tags so you're not blown up as often. And in theory said solution would also mean if revenge tags are properly managed in team fights they shouldn't get much more drawn out than they already are. There's honestly not much they can do to really solve this problem.
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  6. #6
    Even with option selects considered, Gaser is right. The is plenty of information on how to deal with ganks and, unless I misunderstood something here, I don't see why players at higher levels need OSs to deal with ganks. Perhaps this is easy to say coming from a player who nevered used OSs, and has both learned to cope without them and been blown up plenty of times.

    Also, OSs don't save you from coordinated ganks either since OSs can be baited(at least zone OSs) and players are already getting blown up in the live game. As already discussed, removing OSs allows zone attacks to be balanced in terms of stamina at least and used for their intended purpose, unlike OSs, such as dealing with ganks.

    Both in principle and long term health, the game should balanced for its intended mechanics. The presence of OSs made things complicated, not their removal. The removal in both the short and long term will help reveal the real problems For Honor has and allow them to be balanced accordingly and much sooner.

    The truth is players need to learn to play the game with the intended mechanics and the removal of OSs is and will be a wake up call for many. They will need to work through a lot of muscle memory but they wil get used to it over time; I would give it a full season.

    As for ganks:

    Short term solutions:
    • Reintroduce tier 2 the revenge feat.
    • Players need to learn tips on how to cope with or avoid ganks better.


    Long term solutions:
    • Balance stamina for zone attacks so they can be used for their intended purpose without needing revenge first.
    • Have a TG for reducing damage in general. This would give more time to make reads in duels and deal with anti-ganks which would contribute to making the game more read based. Personally, I would consider lights and opening heavies but there are attack 32+ damage attacks that are considered to high so that should be the starting point regarding this particular issue.
    • Remove Reflex Guard, even if it needs its own separate TG first.
    • The devs should review the timings of the external indicators. Compared to locked-on indicators, some players, including myself, find them confusing at times and misjudge blocks and parries as a result.
    • Players need to cope without OSs and in general.
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  7. #7
    Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Dawn Go to original post
    Even with option selects considered, Gaser is right. The is plenty of information on how to deal with ganks and, unless I misunderstood something here, I don't see why players at higher levels need OSs to deal with ganks. Perhaps this is easy to say coming from a player who nevered used OSs, and has both learned to cope without them and been blown up plenty of times.

    Also, OSs don't save you from coordinated ganks either since OSs can be baited(at least zone OSs) and players are already getting blown up in the live game. As already discussed, removing OSs allows zone attacks to be balanced in terms of stamina at least and used for their intended purpose, unlike OSs, such as dealing with ganks.

    There are hitstun/block stun ganks and setup ganks. Hitstun ganks is something as easy as using say landing a heavy to confirm an ally heavy. Block stun ganks can work the same way. Setup ganks are things like forcing someone into a parry situation. Either the gank you're put into is confirmed and you cannot do anything about it other than hoping they somehow mess up their timing. Or it forces you into a mix up where you will eat even more damage depending on what you choose to do/not do.

    Option selects gave the defender more than one response to a given situation. Which forced the gankers to think about how they approach you and what should they try to bait out. By removing these as options you have less options to defend against your opponent. Which in turn makes it easier to land damage in general. Ganks that had little counter play to them might not now because of OS removal.
    This isn't an argument to keep option selects as a whole nor is it defending option selects. it's merely pointing out the fact that options are being taken away which will lead to more damage landing. Which forces a conversation to be had about current damage values, ganks themselves, and more.

    As for your suggestions. Instead of making revenge attacks a feat again it should just be built into kits like how body count should be at this point. If revenge attacks is good enough consistently enough then everyone should have access to it or you're just giving the middle finger to heros who won't have that benefit. If it doesn't actually make a difference with the problem we're going to face bringing it back would be pointless.

    Having zones be more available will be nice. But it's not going to fix the power of ganks. As I already explained lowering damage globally will have the knock on effect of potentially making team fights last too long. Reflex guard won't be removed. The devs have hard committed to no guard stance changes. And even if it did that's only helping some of the roster with the new problem. Not everyone equally. Fixing UI for external situations is a reasonable ask. But considering it's been a long standing complaint and the devs haven't done much about it I don't have faith that will happen.


    Aside from smashing down some situations damage (like Orochi getting a 32 damage heavy,) we only have two realistic approaches here if the devs/community consider this fast TTK in ganks a problem. The first solution is what OP has suggested. The second solution would be harder to actually add to the game. The devs would have to look into animation locking attacks (basically any attack that forces your character into a specific animation,) and adjust their properties in some fashion.
    Be it removing pins unique capability to reset hitstun or reducing the animation lock time. This would also force the devs to look at situations like forcing someone to CGB or parry in order to setup a gank. Same with blocked lights forcing a window that gives a free GB externally.


    For all we know people could be fine with general gank damage since the main issue of the fast TTK in the past was bolstered by many unhealthy things that have been removed or nerfed. OS removal is just an example of showing how one relatively small change has a big ripple effect on the game as a whole.
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  8. #8
    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    There are hitstun/block stun ganks and setup ganks. Hitstun ganks is something as easy as using say landing a heavy to confirm an ally heavy. Block stun ganks can work the same way. Setup ganks are things like forcing someone into a parry situation. Either the gank you're put into is confirmed and you cannot do anything about it other than hoping they somehow mess up their timing. Or it forces you into a mix up where you will eat even more damage depending on what you choose to do/not do.

    Option selects gave the defender more than one response to a given situation. Which forced the gankers to think about how they approach you and what should they try to bait out. By removing these as options you have less options to defend against your opponent. Which in turn makes it easier to land damage in general. Ganks that had little counter play to them might not now because of OS removal.
    This isn't an argument to keep option selects as a whole nor is it defending option selects. it's merely pointing out the fact that options are being taken away which will lead to more damage landing. Which forces a conversation to be had about current damage values, ganks themselves, and more.
    This reinforces my point that OSs complicated the gameplay and their removal helps reveal the real issues For Honor has. Again, the sooner they are identified, the sooner they can be corrected.

    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    As for your suggestions. Instead of making revenge attacks a feat again it should just be built into kits like how body count should be at this point. If revenge attacks is good enough consistently enough then everyone should have access to it or you're just giving the middle finger to heros who won't have that benefit. If it doesn't actually make a difference with the problem we're going to face bringing it back would be pointless.
    I disagree with buffing revenge in general. You'll just swap one problem for another, that being revenge will make certain heroes killing machines instead of playing the role of stalling. This is why I suggested the reintroducing the revenge feat as that would only be given to heroes that actually need it, like most or all of the assassin class since they have the lowest HP. However, this would only be a temporary/short-term remedy until an actual fix is produced. I don't think heroes like Shugoki, Lawbringer, Raider, Jiang Jun, or Warlord need revenge buffs and I'm sure many can figure out why. So, yes, I would give the 'middle finger' to those types of heroes.

    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    Having zones be more available will be nice. But it's not going to fix the power of ganks. As I already explained lowering damage globally will have the knock on effect of potentially making team fights last too long. Reflex guard won't be removed. The devs have hard committed to no guard stance changes. And even if it did that's only helping some of the roster with the new problem. Not everyone equally. Fixing UI for external situations is a reasonable ask. But considering it's been a long standing complaint and the devs haven't done much about it I don't have faith that will happen.
    Viable zones won't stop ganks alone but you shouldn't need revenge first to use them as you won't able to get revenge in all gank scenarios. OSs are a misuse of zones and zones should be assigned to their intended and correct role.

    While you argue that global damage reduction could potentially make team fights last too long but so would increasing the damage reduction. You either want to reduce the damage you receive in ganks or you don't. The disadvantages of increasing damage reduction include:
    • Risk of making the defender overpowered when revenge is activated. The defender would have the damage output increase & revenge shield coupled with the increased damage reduction of the gankers. Either the defender would kill all of the gankers or have plenty of time to stall until help arrives and prolong the zone capture.
    • Increasing damage reduction would also synergise with perks and feats that also strengthen a hero's defence. Bear in mind perks and feats already synergise with each other. You could easily make psuedo-revenge builds with this scenario which would create its own problems. There will be heroes that just won't die. Take Jorm's shield feats and shield perks synergy along with Hard To Kill, and heroes with Bastion, Last Stand, & Vengence Barrier perks combined with feats like Flesh Wound and Fury or Tough As Nails, or Juggernaut & Hard To Kill as examples.


    Reducing the damage of attacks that are considered too high(32+dmg) may prolong fights as well but this won't have the problem of indirectly synergising with defensive feats & perks and making certain heroes too strong in the process, i.e. heavy heroes and other non-assassin classes. Also the power gap between defender with revenge and gankers won't favour the defender as his/her damage would be reduced as well(where applicable). Reducing the damage of overtuned attacks would also achieve multiple goals:
    • Reducing the power of ganks
    • Allow players more time to make reads in both duels and team fights(as mentioned earlier) as well as make the game more accessible. To me 38dmg for a single attack is too high for both duels and ganks. 32dmg should be the cap but lower wouldn't hurt either, at least in my eyes.


    Also, removing Reflex Guard would help the class that has lost their speed advantage, has the least amount of HP, healing feats, defensive feats, and defensive perks, and the synergies that go with them. You may feel that RG won't be removed but many felt the devs wouldn't budge on their original stance on light spam but they did. You could be right but we should still raise the issue when it continues to be a problem so if what we ask for isn't the solution, the least the devs could do is find an alternative rather than do nothing.

    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    Aside from smashing down some situations damage (like Orochi getting a 32 damage heavy,) we only have two realistic approaches here if the devs/community consider this fast TTK in ganks a problem. The first solution is what OP has suggested. The second solution would be harder to actually add to the game. The devs would have to look into animation locking attacks (basically any attack that forces your character into a specific animation,) and adjust their properties in some fashion.
    Be it removing pins unique capability to reset hitstun or reducing the animation lock time. This would also force the devs to look at situations like forcing someone to CGB or parry in order to setup a gank. Same with blocked lights forcing a window that gives a free GB externally.
    As I mentioned earlier, increasing damage reduction would create its own problems but looking at pins and animation lock times sounds more sensible as some are an issue like Shinobi's pin breaking a rule and the infinite gank scenario with certain heroes. These things also allow coordinated ganks to take down defenders with revenge quite quickly or stop revenge from happening altogether.

    However, forcing someone to CGB or parry is a part of the game and isn't really a problem as the defender was caught in the wrong position. This brings us back to the issue of knowing how to deal with ganks where there are tips on how to deal with these scenarios, and what normally happens when you encounter a coordinated gank.

    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    For all we know people could be fine with general gank damage since the main issue of the fast TTK in the past was bolstered by many unhealthy things that have been removed or nerfed. OS removal is just an example of showing how one relatively small change has a big ripple effect on the game as a whole.
    This brings us back to what I said earlier where the presence of OSs complicated things while their removal helps reveal the real issues. This also brings us back to what Gaser said earlier that being there's already damage reduction for ganks in place and there are ways to avoid getting ganked and ways to deal with them. If you get caught in ganks too often, it's either on you or your team.
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  9. #9
    This reinforces my point that OSs complicated the gameplay and their removal helps reveal the real issues For Honor has. Again, the sooner they are identified, the sooner they can be corrected.
    Different perspectives I guess. I think having more options for a defender in external situations isn't inherently bad. But I recognize that most OS's were unhealthy outside of external situations.

    I disagree with buffing revenge in general. You'll just swap one problem for another, that being revenge will make certain heroes killing machines instead of playing the role of stalling. This is why I suggested the reintroducing the revenge feat as that would only be given to heroes that actually need it, like most or all of the assassin class since they have the lowest HP. However, this would only be a temporary/short-term remedy until an actual fix is produced. I don't think heroes like Shugoki, Lawbringer, Raider, Jiang Jun, or Warlord need revenge buffs and I'm sure many can figure out why. So, yes, I would give the 'middle finger' to those types of heroes.
    I will touch on the revenge comment with the next quote but I should point out that 100-0 ganks already exist that work on every hero so I disagree with the notion that the suggestion made by OP would disproportionally make some heros better than others.


    While you argue that global damage reduction could potentially make team fights last too long but so would increasing the damage reduction. You either want to reduce the damage you receive in ganks or you don't. The disadvantages of increasing damage reduction include:
    • Risk of making the defender overpowered when revenge is activated. The defender would have the damage output increase & revenge shield coupled with the increased damage reduction of the gankers. Either the defender would kill all of the gankers or have plenty of time to stall until help arrives and prolong the zone capture.
    • Increasing damage reduction would also synergise with perks and feats that also strengthen a hero's defence. Bear in mind perks and feats already synergise with each other. You could easily make psuedo-revenge builds with this scenario which would create its own problems. There will be heroes that just won't die. Take Jorm's shield feats and shield perks synergy along with Hard To Kill, and heroes with Bastion, Last Stand, & Vengence Barrier perks combined with feats like Flesh Wound and Fury or Tough As Nails, or Juggernaut & Hard To Kill as examples.


    In my understanding of the suggestion the damage reduction is only applied before you pop revenge. Not persisting through revenge itself. The damage reduction is based on the tags themselves. Meaning once revenge is popped you shouldn't have tags anymore. Far as the comment goes about increasing team fight length ideally you'd be managing revenge tags so people wouldn't be walking around with a lot of damage reduction. This is after all how the game is played at a competitive level. But yes, adding any DR at all will make fights last longer. I am simply arguing from the perspective that Temporary damage reduction is better because there's more control over the TTK there than there is for simply globally bringing damage down.

    Reducing the damage of attacks that are considered too high(32+dmg) may prolong fights as well but this won't have the problem of indirectly synergising with defensive feats & perks and making certain heroes too strong in the process, i.e. heavy heroes and other non-assassin classes. Also the power gap between defender with revenge and gankers won't favour the defender as his/her damage would be reduced as well(where applicable). Reducing the damage of overtuned attacks would also achieve multiple goals:
    • Reducing the power of ganks
    • Allow players more time to make reads in both duels and team fights(as mentioned earlier) as well as make the game more accessible. To me 38dmg for a single attack is too high for both duels and ganks. 32dmg should be the cap but lower wouldn't hurt either, at least in my eyes.


    There's a difference between targeting specific moves that do too much damage and globally reducing damage. I was arguing against global damage tuning and for targeting specific moves. Far as reducing damage in ganks though goes the more lethal ganks are specifically so because they are bolstered by locked animation moves. Often involving a pin that resets hitstun. I don't think reducing damage in anyway is going to really tone down those ganks enough. The pin mechanic is problematic in it of itself.

    Also, removing Reflex Guard would help the class that has lost their speed advantage, has the least amount of HP, healing feats, defensive feats, and defensive perks, and the synergies that go with them. You may feel that RG won't be removed but many felt the devs wouldn't budge on their original stance on light spam but they did. You could be right but we should still raise the issue when it continues to be a problem so if what we ask for isn't the solution, the least the devs could do is find an alternative rather than do nothing.
    I think there's a time and a place to ask for big changes like that. Light spam is a community born issue and addressing it regardless of being a problem or not is a lot simpler of a task on a technical level than it would be to remove a mechanic like reflex guard. I just don't see the point in suggesting it anymore especially this late in the game. With your presented logic we could also say asking for seperate platform balancing or cross progression or fixing the console's excessive input delay problems is fair.

    As I mentioned earlier, increasing damage reduction would create its own problems but looking at pins and animation lock times sounds more sensible as some are an issue like Shinobi's pin breaking a rule and the infinite gank scenario with certain heroes. These things also allow coordinated ganks to take down defenders with revenge quite quickly or stop revenge from happening altogether.
    Coming up with a different value for pins aside from resetting hitstun would be a difficult task for the devs to undertake. As would be balancing animation locks beyond where they are already. It sounds more sensible sure. But that doesn't make it easier of a task. Making Shinobi's sickle rain fall in line with other pin moves would be easy. But redoing pin moves in general is not.

    However, forcing someone to CGB or parry is a part of the game and isn't really a problem as the defender was caught in the wrong position. This brings us back to the issue of knowing how to deal with ganks where there are tips on how to deal with these scenarios, and what normally happens when you encounter a coordinated gank.
    I feel like this is just a statement made from a lack of understanding. While you can certainly eat the guard break (as an example,) against a zerk setup gank that solution doesn't exist for every setup gank. Nor do I think that someone should get punished for parrying a move when forced to make an impossible read in an unfavorable position. You can argue that block stun being part of the game means it's alright to give someone a free GB externally just because that's how the game works. But that doesn't make it healthy for the game.


    This brings us back to what I said earlier where the presence of OSs complicated things while their removal helps reveal the real issues. This also brings us back to what Gaser said earlier that being there's already damage reduction for ganks in place and there are ways to avoid getting ganked and ways to deal with them. If you get caught in ganks too often, it's either on you or your team.
    Getting good reduces the chances of being ganked. It's nothing to do with the power of ganks themselves and isn't a counter argument to the discussion about said power.
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  10. #10
    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    Different perspectives I guess. I think having more options for a defender in external situations isn't inherently bad. But I recognize that most OS's were unhealthy outside of external situations.
    I'm effectively saying that we swap OSs for more viable zones since they weren't really an option for ganks due to stamina costs. When zones are eventually balanced, you'll have the same number of defensive options but under a different and correct context. And yes, the skill curve to use the tool may be higher for some heroes. We already know Raider is going to benefit a lot from the changes, especially when he couldn't benefit from zone OSs so he gains an option outside revenge.

    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    I will touch on the revenge comment with the next quote but I should point out that 100-0 ganks already exist that work on every hero so I disagree with the notion that the suggestion made by OP would disproportionally make some heros better than others.
    The OP didn't talk about revenge buffs for all heroes, you did...

    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    As for your suggestions. Instead of making revenge attacks a feat again it should just be built into kits like how body count should be at this point. If revenge attacks is good enough consistently enough then everyone should have access to it or you're just giving the middle finger to heros who won't have that benefit. If it doesn't actually make a difference with the problem we're going to face bringing it back would be pointless.
    ...and, yes, ganks do work on all heroes but some heroes have a greater survival rate than others, mainly non-assassins and especially ones built for team fighting such as Jiang Jun. Shugoki is also a high favourite and don't forget Raider's zone on target switch. This why I said only heroes that actually need it should have a revenge buff like the revenge feat the assassins used to have since their survival rate in ganks is relatively lower than all the other classes.


    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    In my understanding of the suggestion the damage reduction is only applied before you pop revenge. Not persisting through revenge itself. The damage reduction is based on the tags themselves. Meaning once revenge is popped you shouldn't have tags anymore. Far as the comment goes about increasing team fight length ideally you'd be managing revenge tags so people wouldn't be walking around with a lot of damage reduction. This is after all how the game is played at a competitive level. But yes, adding any DR at all will make fights last longer. I am simply arguing from the perspective that Temporary damage reduction is better because there's more control over the TTK there than there is for simply globally bringing damage down.
    If I was wrong with my first bullet point, okay, I can accept that. However, I shall clarify that with my original suggestion to damage reduction, the starting point should be the damage of attacks that are considered too high. If that proves to be not enough, then further reductions should be made. Again, increasing temporary damage reduction would have a knock-effect with heroes that synergise their defensive feats & perks or their healing feats & perks, especially with classes that have high HP.


    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    There's a difference between targeting specific moves that do too much damage and globally reducing damage. I was arguing against global damage tuning and for targeting specific moves. Far as reducing damage in ganks though goes the more lethal ganks are specifically so because they are bolstered by locked animation moves. Often involving a pin that resets hitstun. I don't think reducing damage in anyway is going to really tone down those ganks enough. The pin mechanic is problematic in it of itself.
    I know the difference between addressing specific high damage moves and global reduction, which, again, I said that dealing with tools where the damage is too high should be the starting point.

    If reducing damage isn't going to make much of a difference whether it is temporary, nerfing high damage attacks, or global reduction, then why were you arguing for it in the first place? At least we can agree that the devs should review pins and animation locks to address balancing issues in general and infinite ganks where possible. I think they should review revenge locks to assess fairness in that respect.

    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    I think there's a time and a place to ask for big changes like that. Light spam is a community born issue and addressing it regardless of being a problem or not is a lot simpler of a task on a technical level than it would be to remove a mechanic like reflex guard. I just don't see the point in suggesting it anymore especially this late in the game. With your presented logic we could also say asking for seperate platform balancing or cross progression or fixing the console's excessive input delay problems is fair.
    I don't think removing reflex Guard is a big ask since it plays as a handicap for the assassins. To me, it's less of an ask than removing the option selects and how much they did to address light spam. So I would say your last line is a false equivalence. Also, as I said before if what we're asking isn't the solution, the devs should find an alternative.

    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    Coming up with a different value for pins aside from resetting hitstun would be a difficult task for the devs to undertake. As would be balancing animation locks beyond where they are already. It sounds more sensible sure. But that doesn't make it easier of a task. Making Shinobi's sickle rain fall in line with other pin moves would be easy. But redoing pin moves in general is not.
    It wouldn't be easy but if it's necessary for balance, it should be done. However, I was more referring to the problematic ones, not necessarily reworking the entire lot.

    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    I feel like this is just a statement made from a lack of understanding. While you can certainly eat the guard break (as an example,) against a zerk setup gank that solution doesn't exist for every setup gank. Nor do I think that someone should get punished for parrying a move when forced to make an impossible read in an unfavorable position. You can argue that block stun being part of the game means it's alright to give someone a free GB externally just because that's how the game works. But that doesn't make it healthy for the game.
    I'm saying that I don't think gank setups that involve manipulating or taking advantage of CGB, parry attempts, and block stuns are unfair. Many coordinated ganks look like this which takes knowledge and skill to apply. They are not exploits. If you get caught by a coordinated gank, that's more down to the player, rotation, or team coordination. You have to ask yourself why were you in that position in the first place.

    If you feel there are bugs or inconsistencies then report them, like free GB from an external block or Shinobi's bin breaking a rule. If it is intended, you'll have to deal with it.

    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    Getting good reduces the chances of being ganked. It's nothing to do with the power of ganks themselves and isn't a counter argument to the discussion about said power.
    Let's go back to what you originally said...

    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    For all we know people could be fine with general gank damage since the main issue of the fast TTK in the past was bolstered by many unhealthy things that have been removed or nerfed. OS removal is just an example of showing how one relatively small change has a big ripple effect on the game as a whole.
    If people are fine with gank damage due to past issues being fixed then why were you arguing for further temporary damage reduction?

    As for the power of ganks, only infinite ganks and broken pins(e.g. Shinobi's Sickle Rain) need looking into. Anything 'power' related, to me, comes down to the weaknesses of certain heroes, that being the assassins as I mentioned earlier. In ganks and team fights in general, they have the following disadvantages:

    • Low HP
    • No feat & perk synergy for healing or defense
    • Reflex Guard
    • No more speed advantage over the other classes
    • Smallest hit boxes
    • Worst minion & pikemen clearing(except Nuxia, of course)


    Yes, I'm saying ganks are more an issue for assassins mainly because of their weaknesses. If some of them were addressed, then ganks would be less problematic for them. Apart from that, gank issues are mainly related to map rotation and team play, as well as individual decision-making.

    The other solution for ganking issues would be for better matchmaking so veterans at least are not put with players that make poor decisions and ignore objectives.

    This season alone, I've played with players from rep 0 to 1000+. When people complain about ganks in the chat, they either blame it on lack of support from their teammates, teammates ignoring objectives while the entire opposition doesn't, over-tuned tools or feats of specific heroes, or teammates quiting the match and being left with bots. No one so far has complained about the 'power' of ganking itself during chat and I'm sure it's mainly because they know ganks are a part of the game, they have dished out as much as they have taken, and there are ways to deal with them. The only other related complaint I've seen is players not fighting 'honourably.'

    You seem to keep framing the removal of OS as a bad thing. The 'ripple effects' I see are the ones where people who chose not to make real reads when dealing with mixups and not learning to defend themselves properly in ganks without the use of an unintended tool or 'crutch' if you will. This is only a short term problem mainly due to muscle memory which will solve itself within a season. The only other 'ripple effects' are exposing balancing issues that were hidden by OSs and zones can finally be balanced which, again, are good things. I believe most people are happy with this change, even just by going by the comments in Freeze's video alone.
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