🛈 Announcement
Greetings! The For Honor forums are now archived and accessible in read-only mode, please go to the new platform to discuss the game
  1. #1

    Extended TG feedback- Raider

    Final entry for this three thread series is Raider. I hate to end it on a sour note but re-reading my Shinobi thread a few times I realized I was already kind of heading in that direction. So again backround on my experience with Raider. I have 5 reps in him the same as Orochi however I played Orochi in the beta a lot and through out FH's life span. Where as there was a brief period of time where I played Raider a lot and then didn't really touch him much after. If you're looking for a TLDR this time around i'll just tell you how I feel right now and save you the trouble. But I do urge you to actually read the whole post before you try to open a conversation with me.

    To put it bluntly Raider is bad. Awful. And arguably worse than he used to be. This is entirely because of the armor change. Not only because it effectively removes one option for Raider in many instances but because it highlights the cracks in the hero. Raider doesn't have any sort of design cohesion without the ability to reliably trade. The absolute worst part about all of this for me is how the character is going to be received. In high level play Raider will not go anywhere in 4's. He lacks any kind of peel to even call him a team fighter contender. His main mix up in duels of his chained zone into soft feints didn't get any better despite OS being removed. And this is because it's still dead slow. Yet at an average to below average level he's now cemented as the new spammy hero with easy access 400ms soft feints and 500ms lights in every direction in triple attack chains. Raider still houses the absolute worst animations in terms of attacks that have been sped up.

    I am SEVERELY disappointed with how little care was put into this rework. The only shining aspect in his rework was neutral zone. But even that has flaws. So let's take it from the top and start small:

    Recoveries:

    This seems like one of those no brainer, free win changes the devs could've easily made if they'd even bothered to listen to people asking for buffs to Raider. Where are his recoveries bad? Basically everywhere. Neutral zone is STILL frame disadvantage on hit for literally no reason. Whiffing the zone and chain zone still has insane levels of recovery. Last time I checked it was 1000ms for both. Even landing your chained zone seems to put you in a long enough recovery that you cannot actually take advantage of being in FA which is a basic thing literally every other unblockable mix gets. His light finishers still have absurd recoveries on whiff as well. All of this feels like Garbage in a world where everyone has some access to a dodge attack of some kind.


    Chain zone mix:

    This is bad and also very damn weird. Raider got a hidden buff to link into his chain finisher slightly sooner. This means in some cases trying to stuff raider's mix you trade with him. Usually from a light into zone. Storm tap is different. If you land a storm tap you can stuff it. If it's blocked you can't? Also if storm tap is blocked it chains into your 2nd attack and not finishers. A very wonderful buff for raider if it was actually how tap worked in general. Also worth noting that for whatever reason you cannot whiff your second light into zone finisher. But you still can from everything else. A weird bug that only works against Raider.


    Armor:

    My biggest complaint from the entire rework by miles and i'm going to have to be rude here. The devs cited feint into GB after eating a hit as a reason for the change. Their wording suggests/can be heard as them saying you could reliably react to eating a hit and getting the GB. This is disingenuous at best. Raider has to make a read to soft feint into GB on live with his chain HA. This is because of numbers. You get zero ease of access to this chain heavy meaning you've got to whiff a light to react it or land it. No other situation to this chained heavy would allow you to eat an attack and soft feint to GB.

    The only situation this was applicable in was his chain finisher. Because unlike the regular chain heavy the armor came out 100ms into the attack. And this was common place because Raider's tap always leads to finishers. Now, I can be a big jerk and I frequently am. But I feel like if you're dodge attacking when raider has access to a finisher you know has a lot of armor you deserve to eat the hit for trying to opt out of the mix. But whatever, I don't mind armor itself being dialed back.

    My problem is specifically how far back it was dialed. They set it to the exact same time window that Warlord has and Goki/Hitokiri have as well. They probably assumed that because this armor timing works elsewhere it should work here and that makes me really question what sort of actual testing they do because I refuse to believe they're this ignorant of their own game. This timing works for Warlord because he has 700ms chain heavies which are 100ms faster than raiders. That 100ms difference lets Warlord trade when he wants to without actually letting him be none committal.

    The armor timing works for Hitokiri and Shugoki because they get armor the moment they release their charged input. In short those heros have actual control over when they trade. Raider doesn't. The change might have solved the "problem" of armor in duels. But it absolutely ruins Raider's team fighting capabilities. His bad recoveries and lack of a peel tool already severely hamper his ability to team fight. This basically removes it. Raider often gets peeled for using storming tap. Live Raider can punish this attempt at a peel by going for the regular heavy instead of an unblockable zone because he'd trade for decent damage. It's still a gamble for him due to how poor his recoveries are. But at least he had the option. Now you will get peeled every single time you storm tap. Leaving Raider to basically jack all in a team fight where supposedly the devs want him to be. (As they expressed as much during the den when comparing him to Warlord and Kensei.)


    Also not related to armor but what was up with that "buff" to stampede charge? I can only assume this was done to try and make it comparable to Warlord's Crashing charge. However that was a very misguided and poor change. The faster speed has actually made it easier to whiff Stampede. This is because unlike Crashing charge Stampede only has one hitbox. Making it faster means you've got to be closer before you initiate it or your window for the grab misses. Second of all Stampede charge isn't bad. If Raider was actually in the meta it would be setup as a gank to where it would be confirmed. Just like Crashing charge ganks are setup. This change doesn't help his gank potential and actively hurts Raider. Actually revert it.


    Identity:

    This is the last ramble before I give suggestions for his kit. I really want to know what Raider is meant to be. The devs want him to be a team fighter as they compared him to Kensei and Warlord. However he lacks the tools to make that happen. Kensei because of his block stun/hitstun properties basically confirms his chain finisher lights from people next to him if properly positioned. This is incredible peel. Raider doesn't have good enough recoveries to be close to this. Warlord has Crashing charge ganks on top of an incredible peel tool of his zone and extra defensive capabilities with armor and full block. Raider has nothing like crashing charge, zero tools to peel, and his armor was gutted.

    It feels more accurate to look at raider as a harasseer because of his extended throw animations and stampede charge. But we can't make Stampede as good as it used to be. And we can't do much with his throws. We have access to his 3 hit chains but with no real use for anything in said chains. I feel like at best Raider just has his zone and storming tap with everything else being filler. Where it was easy to see where we could Nudge shinobi and Orochi I cannot say the same for Raider. At best I can only lean into those tools and offer a suggestion for team fighting. It would make him a worse Warlord, but being a worse version of a strong meta defining hero isn't bad.


    Suggestions:

    -both versions of storming tap now are combo starters. Chains into his second light/heavy and zone.

    -Buffed recoveries of both zones on whiff and hit. Buffed recovery on whiff for chain light finisher.

    -Zone from neutral can now chain into zone finisher as well. Damage reduced to compensate.

    -Second top light chain and top chain light finisher are now enhanced. Top light finisher is still frame disadvantaged.

    -Armor timing for all chained heavies and finisher heavies is now 300ms into the heavy. (100ms sooner than TG, 100ms later than live.)

    -Chained zone is now 900ms down from 1000ms.

    -Polish his damned animations.

    -Storm tap is now undodgable both from dodge and soft feint. (possibly buff range as well.)

    -Raider now has HA after parrying for any attack (like Gryphon) to solve the issue of not being able to anti gank at all.


    While someone could potentially argue that Berzerker didn't need any more help to be made relevant for 4's I really don't see how anyone who's fully aware of Raider's kit can suggest this rework was anything close to what he needed. It very much shows that the devs were far more taxed on working on shinobi and Orochi with their reworks. It just feels like Raider wasn't cared about at all. If Zerk had additionally gotten better hitboxes for his unblockable heavies I could've accepted his rework. I would want more. But I could live with it. With Raider though I can't accept this. Even if his neutral zone now gives him a proper opener and his stamina costs are fair. He's still just too awful everywhere else to call this rework anything close to a win for the hero.
     4 people found this helpful
    Share this post

  2. #2
    Well said!

    I especially agree with the part about Raider's Hyper Armor.
     2 people found this helpful
    Share this post

  3. #3
    Well... I warned Raider.
    Not to hang out much with Jorm...He didnt listen...
     1 people found this helpful
    Share this post

  4. #4
    Again, Raime, thanks for putting in the time to write a full analysis.

    As a Raider main, I share many of the same thoughts about the TG changes.

    The armor change is definitely the biggest downfall for Raider in TG. I HAVE noticed that people are more intimidated when DUELING Raider, because now players have to play Raider's UB game a little more. However, he's so much easier to shut down in team fights than ever before. Raider's heavies are not as fast as Shugoki's or Warlord's, and it was a mistake to add the same HA timings for Raider.

    I just think Raider's chained lights look bad, not necessarily the opener lights.

    As for recoveries, I'm also disappointed they're still so bad. Finisher zone actually isn't 1000ms, it's 1300ms... It's the new shugo hug. I'm actually kind of confused how the devs paid attention to this small detail and fixed the forced delay issue from a right side heavy to zone, but didn't address any of the other recoveries.

    I honestly don't mind the frame disadvantage after a chained zone, though, because it's a huge 38dmg. Like Jorm, the fight is also reset after landing the 38dmg hammer slam. However, the recovery is still monstrous and downright awful.

    I actually had no idea of the mixup changes you mentioned. I never noticed a blocked storming tap flowed to 2nd chain attacks, which probably would have been nice to know. However, like the whiffed chained lights not flowing to zone, I HAVE to believe this is also a bug.

    I COMPLETELY agree with your statement on the armor situation with GB. The rule against a Raider in live right now is you can't punish his whiffed attacks, and if you try, you're really stupid.

    I even mentioned this in the survey how this whiffed light to heavy feint to GB trade cannot be done on reaction and most likely will NEVER happen at high-level play due to the fact that it's very stupid to try and interrupt a Raider's chain in the first place.
    Let me state for the record that I've only ever done the trade to GB by accident since I never expect anyone to try and light me after I whiff a light... And, you said it best: if anyone tries to be stupid or braindead and simply wants to interrupt with lights or dodge attacks, they probably deserve to get hit.

    Now, I can't reliably use my chains in team fights. Dodge attacks shut Raider down.

    In live, you can delay a forward dodge storming tap to catch rolls. With storming tap standardized in TG, Raider can no longer use it to roll catch.

    As for Stampede Charge, I honestly believe it performs weaker than in live. With it being faster, tracking is a little worse and people tend to dodge on reaction since you have to be closer. I've either whiffed Stampede Charge or been punished for using it. It doesn't feel good, it doesn't work, it needs to be reverted.

    Don't get me wrong, I love the new ways I can play Raider. Flow is better, he's more efficient, and with option selects gone the UB pressure works at least 50% more. Not just for Raider, but for everyone.

    However, all of these changes are negated by what HASN'T been fixed or what was nerfed.

    It's a shame the devs want Raider to be interchangeable with Kensei or WL but didn't give similar tools to Raider in order for that to be possible.

    I like your suggestions. I typically don't like undodgeable lights, though. Undodgeable storming tap would be interesting since it would chase better if performed from a forward or side dodge but soft feint undodgeable storming tap leaves very little options for a defender when fighting a Raider, especially for assassins. Mix that with better HA and stamina and they won't actually have a turn at fighting back. Storming tap is already 400ms, and they can't dodge a heavy early. You would shut down characters like Tiandi or JJ with extended dodge frames. They wouldn't be able to use their dodge attacks at all since they're so slow. You can essentially react and option select anything those characters do if you had undodgeable sf storming taps. Even if someone doesn't dodge attack and just dodges.

    Besides, back to the identity thing with Raider. Do we want him to trade, or do we want him to catch dodges with undodgeables? He can't have both.

    Raider has HA and sf GB. Adding an undodgeable property to a move that's primarily meant to fake someone out is probably too harassing. With new stam changes to zones, UB pressure mixed with UD pressure would make for a very powerful hero alongside EVERY other change your mentioned needs to happen. Raider would be the absolute king of keeping someone in place since all versions of storming tap are also enhanced.

    With this in mind, Raider shouldn't be able to chain to 2nd attacks after a forward or side dodge storming tap, then, or even from a sf. If 2nd and 3rd top lights are enhanced, that's even MORE stun. Raider would be able to keep someone in place for 3 whole light attacks. Mix that with the pressure of potential UB or GBs, he would be an unbelievable harasser and ganker. Assassins would hate their lives. I already dislike Gryphons UD light finishers, and I'd hate a fast sf like Storming Tap to bear such a quality.

    That wouldn't be fun to fight and it's hard to imagine how crazy all that would be when looking at it theoretically.



    Thanks for putting in the time to make this thread. I'm with you 100% with the fact that Raider still needs work and arguably performs worse than in live. I don't like ALL of your suggestions, though, but no hard feelings.
    Share this post

  5. #5
    @MCBooma16

    Going to skim response wise because it will be easier to have conversation that way. Though I do appreciate the long response.

    "I honestly don't mind the frame disadvantage after a chained zone, though, because it's a huge 38dmg. Like Jorm, the fight is also reset after landing the 38dmg hammer slam. However, the recovery is still monstrous and downright awful."

    AFAIK hammer slam is a true neutral reset because it's a hard animation lock. Same goes for Centurion pouncing you, shaman biting you, etc. Raider's zone isn't an animation lock when it lands so he's actually FD. And i'll have to disagree with you. Frame neutral I could be fine with but no one should have FD on their finisher heavies. 38 damage is excessive as is anyway and is probably one of the UB's that will get nerfed down inevitably since the devs are likely going to make another, smaller damage pass since UB's will land more with the removal of OS's.


    "Don't get me wrong, I love the new ways I can play Raider. Flow is better, he's more efficient, and with option selects gone the UB pressure works at least 50% more. Not just for Raider, but for everyone."

    I'll have to disagree about that in regards to Raider specifically. I had more than one person easily beat out my mix up. They would block top to react on indicator disappearing for parrying, Dodge the UB once you know it's committed, and throw zone to stuff me if I'm trying to soft feint into GB. Now it's entirely possible that someone read me enough to shut me out like that. But I don't buy that happening with 3 different people in a single day. If Raider's chained zone didn't have butts recovery and you physically couldn't stuff him out of his zone after receiving any hitstun/block stun I could agree with OS removal being noticeably beneficial for him. But as he is on TG I can only disagree.


    "I like your suggestions. I typically don't like undodgeable lights, though...."

    Currently you can roll away from all of Raider's soft feint mix ups on TG. The only two times this isn't the case is when he's landed a heavy (heavy hitstun,) or he's forced you to block a heavy. But this second one is a bit iffy depending on if your opponent is spacing with back walk or not. They could give him the Aramusha treatment and give his soft feint tap and his chain heavies/finishers more forward movement and trajectories to solve this issue. But it wouldn't solve Raider's issue with a lack of peel.
    If you've got a solution for him that gives him peel that doesn't involve him using an undodgable i'd be all ears for it. But I honestly couldn't think of one.


    "With this in mind, Raider shouldn't be able to chain to 2nd attacks after a forward or side dodge storming tap..."

    Enhanced top lights was an attempt to have them have more usage since top stance direction was and still is entirely dominated by ST. I could take or leave that suggestion personally but I really do want him to chain back into his mid chain attacks from ST. I really don't like the start and stop nature of his offense. If he was properly FA after his chain zone and his regular heavy then I wouldn't mind it so much. But those moves also have butts recovery.

    Again like the undodgable tap suggestion i'm just trying to add more to the kit so he's not just "I throw chains" at people who can't block consistently and "I spam zone soft feints" at people who turtle. I want his flow to be more dynamic and his kit to have more substance.
    Share this post

  6. #6
    With the testing ground survey I pretty much mentioned that the raider buffs were just "lazy cop out buffs". Raime does good to put it into detail
    Share this post

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by deathtocakl Go to original post
    With the testing ground survey I pretty much mentioned that the raider buffs were just "lazy cop out buffs". Raime does good to put it into detail
    It's such a shame too because the way his neutral zone plays on TG (aside from FD and having bad whiff recovery) is pretty dang good at opening people.
    Share this post

  8. #8
    Are you a lawyer, Raime?
    You should be...
    Share this post

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by PicoAncus Go to original post
    Are you a lawyer, Raime?
    You should be...
    No I just like to talk a lot. As fun as would be to slam my hands on a desk and scream objection all the time that's not how court works.
    And trying to read laws is probably one of the most annoying things i've ever done in my life. Legal speak is the spaghetti language of the universe.
    Share this post

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    As fun as would be to slam my hands (Hammer) on a desk and scream objection all the time that's not how court works..
    Suddenly this phrase reminded me of Jorm. I wonder why...
    Share this post