I wonder if not just doing a % of the enemies health is in order here, but perhaps the ability to proc multiple times on a single enemy? Or at least refresh the duration? Make this a set specific talent to proc up to 3 times per enemy?
Perhaps a new 4 piece set bonus is necessary here?
4 Piece Bonus being "Fragmentation Rounds" : All weapons are loaded with special set specific Fragmentation rounds, which have to hit an enemy 10 times to begin theFrag Bleed effect, Fragmentation Ammo allows stacking of Bleed on enemies 3 times (Increased damage % with Backpack maybe?) Enemies affected by Fragmentation Ammo take 6% increased damage per stack from all sources (8% with chest Piece). Think of it similar to essence for the True Patriot set where you complete a icon on an enemies health bar that shows their level of "bleed" for you and team mates? Perhaps a 3 part Triangle that gets built 1 line at a time, and at full build the Triangle fills in with a Red Blood Drop icon?
Well, that's an expression of your personal preference; I like the level of management complexity that it currently has.Originally Posted by xcel30 Go to original post
Correct for you, incorrect for others. You sound like you're proposing that we make this one like the others and no longer cater to those like me who enjoy (at least sometimes) playing loadouts that require this level management. Changing the game to cater to fewer playstyles, rather than at least keeping the currently supported ones, seems to me a terrible direction to go. Keeping the whole player community in mind, not just your own perferences, what do you see as the advantage of replacing multiple different options with many similar options and having less variety?I am saying that other strong and more popular gear sets are streamlined in the correct way....
No, I don't think you understand it at all. If you do not want change for the sake of changes, you are in full agreement with me there. If you still feel you disagree with me somewhere, it ain't that.Look i understand your point i'm not saying that i needs change for the sake of changes...
[quote]...and then you still have to struggle against that to keep it floating. Making things complicated for the sake of looking like they have depth is also a failure of game design.[quote]
Let me be as clear as I can here: I enjoy that struggle to keep it proc'd. I understand that you don't, but just keep in mind that if you make it easier to keep proc'd, you are reducing my enjoyment of the game.
I don't understand that. What is "8-80 gameplay"?The only way for OD to keep the limitations it has would need it to so much more OP to the point it the 8-80 gameplay the set already suffers would become even worse....
If you can't handle the current management load with an LMG, I think the set probably just isn't for you. (There's nothing bad about or wrong with that; there are plenty of sets in the game that you probably find easier to use that I am not particularly good with.)...tip of the spear suffered from the same issue because it need kills instead of hits making the set bonus not activate often enough making the 4 piece bonus most of the time useless. This is what OD suffers and i wish rectified...
I'm not seeing any real issue keeping the set bonus proc'd with with an LMG, and it even seemed ok with a rifle with an extended mag. Weapons with low damage per magazine (SMGs, shotguns to some degree, and in particular pistols) do suffer more than they ought to here, and that should be fixed, but LMGs should probably be made more difficult as far as proc goes.
I'm not a big fan of kill-to-proc, since it's very situational, being problematic both in team play and against small groups of powerful enemies. However, offhand I'm not seeing any obvious way around it in this case.
It seems to to me that giving ammo for simply hitting status-effected enemies runs the risk of a [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_feedback
positive feedback loop[/quote] (a very negative thing, despite the name), though I might be wrong about this. Obviously giving less than one round per hit will remove the ability to keep the chain going as long as you like, much greater than 1 will make it too easy to keep it going forever, and the intermediate values are extremely sensitive to player skill, quickly degrading into one or the other depending on whether the player is marginally more or less skilled than the target skill level of the design. (In practice, that means every player falls into the positive feedback loop, since every player's performance varies from day to day.)
One of the factors in the above that creates a positive feedback loop is that the status effect proc is connected directly to the ammo which the player has little choice but to use. (You can switch weapons to avoid proc, but then you also lose your damage buff and on a kill your ammo goes to the new weapon, not the previous one.) It might be possible to separate the bleed proc from the ammo in some way that would help fix the PFL/chaining issues, such as by having the proc come from the player rather than the ammo. (Think along the lines of, "the next non-bleeding enemy shot by the player will start bleeding; this bleed proc will stack three times," or whatever. I don't think that exactly is a satisfactory design, but hopefull it gives an idea of the direction I'm suggesting to research.)
These are all good ideas to explore! I would suggest, though, that as you do so you carefully consider whether and how you're changing the character of the gearset from basically pure weapon damage to a mixture of weapon and status damage from the player or even more towards pure crowd control. It's not at all wrong to consider such changes, but doing so may be straying into an area where the set starts duplicating what status/CC builds do.Originally Posted by xJdKxZomBiE Go to original post
I've also been fairly underwhelmed at Jammer Pulse after using it in my support build over a few hours.Originally Posted by CategoryTheory Go to original post
Honestly, OD has been on of the most difficult to use sets that I've encountered in this game. It adds weapon damage and bleed, but needs a status to start the set working in the first place. And most weapon damage builds don't generally include status effects. And then the set's primary benefit just doesn't do anything against mechanicals.
It's definitely got a place at the top of the worst sets in Division 2.
Let me start with a simple direct question instead to set things a bit more straight so we don't get confused midway as i believe we are. Do you think this gear set has more power than others and is counteweighted by its limitations or this only applies to LMG builds? Do you consider this an LMG only set?
If your answers is that you see this pretty much an LMG set that can work with other weapons as secondaries sometimes because the LMGs magazines can rub off most of the ammo handling issue, we just see this set differently from one another and have to live with that.
I want this set to be of more universal use with other weapons (shotguns, rifles, MMRs, and everything), i want parts of it reworked because i feel that bleed has been tacked on to the set without thought so all the mechanics of the set that revolve around bleed are underwhelming and make the set needlessly harder to use without a proper reward, and in my view if buffs were made to compensate the set being needlessly convoluted to use in groups or harder content, they would need to be huge to the point that the gap between power off and power on would be so big that set would feel atrocious with power off and OP with the power on.
That last point is what i meant with 8-80 which i beleive is a expression to something that goes from 0 to the max with nothing in between, so you either are most of the time feeling weak and useless but superman for two seconds (which only makes you feel worse when doesn't have everything working nicely) or you are superman most of the time and set is too strong. In my view the other sets do this better since they have a nice buff with everything equipped but also give you a ceiling to improve if you play your cards right, this set doesn't give me that and think instead makes you weaker in it's neutral state (just equipped no hollow points yet)
These are my views on the set and why i think think set when it works has good amount of power but the problem of getting there is too convoluted instead of it's fine being convoluted if i get to equally as super strong to compensate.
Nice. You should give Versatile a try out too as that can net you a huge damage boost when played correctly. I think that's the problem though; in damage terms it's fine but in interest terms it's meh whatever! Procc ammo go brrt brrt. The back pack talent doesn't change that so the set has issues from a playstyle perspective; not much style to it.Originally Posted by Scarr_D Go to original post
There are some good ideas in the weapons and skills on this build.Originally Posted by Scarr_D Go to original post
I'd tried The Grudge as a primary, but for some reason it didn't occur to me to use it as a secondary finisher, even after I noticed that it was one of the very few weapons with a talent that stays proc'd after you switch away from it. It would have been nice to see you make use of this in the video, though.
I was using the Survivalist D50, which also has Perfect Sadist on it, but the horrible recoil makes me have difficulty recommending it, and actually I should use something else. It is a reasonable idea to instead use whatever has the largest mag available so you can stock it with Hollow Point to restart your bleed chain when necessary. That said, if you come across a status ammo crate, you can simply put that on any pistol and have 30 rounds for restarting the OD buff regardless of magazine size. And don't forget that you also eventually get a restart after no more than three kills from Carnage.
Seeker mine to apply bleed is great! For some reason I hadn't realized the standard seeker mine bleeds. (I knew that Airburst does, but that one is a pain because it's sent to a point rather than automatically chasing after an enemy.) The 12.3 second effect time (at skill tier 0, of course) is much better than the other things we'd been looking at in this thread (except perhaps Stinger Hive, which has much less range) and with the bonus that it will proc OD it should be much easier to take down even an elite in the time it gives you.
Gunner at first struck me as interesting choice for specialization, but it makes perfect sense when you realize that Ongoing Directive is really a weapon damage build, not a status damage build, and is best built around an LMG due to the way it distributes Hollow Point ammo. The advantage I'd seen from other specializations is that their status-effect grenades from other builds can be used to proc OD, but Explosive Seeker Mine is certainly a better option; it's more reliable and you don't run out of them.
That said, since you're bleeding a lot of enemies, Survivalist's +10% damage buff to your teammates for those might be of some benefit if you're careful to spread your bleed and they use it.
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Unfortunately, based on what we've learned in this thread you're giving up a lot of potential damage in the gear. Your build does a number of things that the game kind of leads you towards, but it's actually misleading you.
The vest's +15% Weapon Damage (Wdmg) buff is not "crucial"; in fact the more I think about it the more dubious it looks. You already have the following Wdmg buffs in what presumably is the most common situation, shooting bleeding enemies with Carnage:
That's a 2.70 multiplier already; adding another +15% increases it to 2.85, and (2.85 / 2.70) - 1 = 5.56% increase, and one not affecting crit damage at all. (The CHD is added to the weapon damage multiplier; it's aCode:+10% Weapon Damage from watch +15% LMG damage from specialization +75% (+15% × 5) Weapon Damage from gear core attributes +10% LMG Damage from Contractor's Gloves +20% Weapon Damage from OD's Hollow Point Ammo +15% LMG Damage from Carnage +25% Weapon Damage from Perfect Sadist ──────────────────────────────────────────────────────── 170% TOTAL
On the other hand there are plenty of chest talents that buff total weapon damage (TWD; this is a separate multiplier from weapon damage!) by 15% or more, which not only gives you more non-crit damage (15% of 2.70 is a lot more than 15% of 1.00) but also multiplies your crit damage as well.
Creeping Death on the pack and the various "+10% status effects" attributes are both near useless, as we've seen above, because bleed on Heroic does very, very little damage. (Per above, an entire 15 s bleed does about three bullets worth of damage in a max-damage configuration.)
Your video conveniently provides an example of how little damage the bleed is doing. At 5:33 you start shooting a group of red enemies, starting bleed on the entire group. You then start working enemies on the right-hand side of the group, and when at 5:43 (10 s later—two thirds of the full bleed duration) you finish off the elite, you can look at the red gunner on the left and see that bleed has taken off less than 20% of his health bar. Unfortunately at this point you get in what looks like only two shots on that enemy (though just that removes more health than the 10 s bleed did!), but after the reload you spend 20 rounds removing his armoured helmet and then another two rounds kills him.
I'd replace the pack talent with Wicked (+18% TWD on status-affected enemies, so basically always proc'd in this build) which is another massive boost in damage (again, multiplying the 2.70 multiplier above, and your crit damage as well) and use crit chance/damage on all the attributes.
Try this out and I think you'll see enemies go down noticeably faster because you should be be putting out well over 30% more damage. (You can confirm this easily enough in the range.)
I am not sure that even without its limitations this gear set has more power than others. Certainly when used in what appears to be the intended configuration—a high weapon damage build—some parts of it are just lame, such as the two-piece +15% status effect damage or the chest +15% weapon damage. (See my post above for why that's really just a 5% buff, if even that.)Originally Posted by xcel30 Go to original post
I'm not sure if I'd call it an LMG-only set, but it's certainly biased towards weapons with large magazines, and that's pushed a bit further by Perfect Sadist being on an LMG. But really the key element is that you must be able to easily kill enemies with a single magazine's worth of rounds (or ideally a bit less), so I think one might be able to make a reasonable go at this with a rifle with an extended mag as well. In fact, a rifle is the other weapon I currently use on my set, so I should try using it most of the time and see how that works out.
That said, I think the set would be much improved by removing the bias towards large magazines and thus removing the LMG bias. (I have stated in a previous post that basing the amount of HP ammo you give out on magazine size is a problem in my book, but I may not have been completely clear about this.)
I think we see the set differently from each other, but not for this reason. I think we're in agreement that the LMG bias should be removed.If your answers is that you see this pretty much an LMG set that can work with other weapons as secondaries sometimes because the LMGs magazines can rub off most of the ammo handling issue, we just see this set differently from one another and have to live with that.
Well, we'll probably never know for sure, but it looks to me as if very careful thought went into the use of bleed here. I think that bleed was picked specifically because it does very little damage, and so in the "serious" game (Challenging level and above) it serves as essentially just a management system to which the player must apply a reasonable amount of skill.i want parts of it reworked because i feel that bleed has been tacked on to the set without thought...
The rest of the set may not give you a reward justified by the amount of work and skill you put in to keep OD proc'd, but that's a (relatively) minor issue of balance of the reward within the game, not a reason to rework the entire set into what is essentially a completely different gearset (even if it has surface similarities).
That's quite possibly true. But you need to be very careful with judgements such as "needlessly hard to use" because that can oh so very easily be due to lack of skill on your part in that particular domain on your part (even if you are great at other parts of the game), or even just lack of the right practice, rather than an actual problem with the gear set itself. This is why I'm reserving judgement on this until I've rebuilt my set for higher damage and played it a lot more....and in my view if buffs were made to compensate the set being needlessly convoluted to use in groups or harder content, they would need to be huge to the point that the gap between power off and power on would be so big that set would feel atrocious with power off and OP with the power on.
Not an expression I'm familiar with (though I am a native speaker), but thanks for the explanation.That last point is what i meant with 8-80 which i beleive is a expression to something that goes from 0 to the max with nothing in between...
Well, obviously we don't want the latter situation. But for the former situation we need to distinguish feelings from facts. If people can get good damage output from the set, and it doesn't make absolutely everyone feel bad, then the set has a place. And maybe others will try it, get used to it, and not feel so bad any more. If we took out everything that made some people feel bad, we'd probably remove everything in the game....so you either are most of the time feeling weak and useless but superman for two seconds (which only makes you feel worse when doesn't have everything working nicely) or you are superman most of the time and set is too strong.
Sure. Kicking it off (and keeping it proc'd) is part of the problem you have to solve, part of the "combat puzzle" as the developers put it. There's no reason to remove that puzzle from the game; those who don't like it can simply use a different gearset.In my view the other sets do this better since they have a nice buff with everything equipped but also give you a ceiling to improve if you play your cards right, this set doesn't give me that and think instead makes you weaker in it's neutral state (just equipped no hollow points yet).
Well, just remember that it needs to provide an appropriate reward to those who are good at doing what's necessary to make the set work, and that won't be everyone. There are plenty of things in the game that work well for only a fraction of players; that's why there are so many things in the game. It gets coverage for everybody by having lots of variety, not by going for the lowest common denominator on just a few pieces of gear.These are my views on the set and why i think...the problem of getting there is too convoluted instead of it's fine being convoluted if i get to equally as super strong to compensate.
Honestly this setence just confuses me because the set is underpowered and clunky to use i don't see it as complex and rewarding and instead something needless complex becuase of bad implemented mechanics around the "combat puzzle" only to get marginal rewards in terms of powers, feels like you have a 6 hour job per day to get 500 bucks with regular gear sets and with this one you get an 8 hour job per day to get 250 bucks, it's a straight worse option in terms of hours of work and in terms of pay.Well, just remember that it needs to provide an appropriate reward to those who are good at doing what's necessary to make the set work, and that won't be everyone.
As someone who has the guts to say has more time with this set than anyone else i have ever seen, i don't understand how the devs still haven't touched or talked more about it. But since you are still going to experiment it more, i REALLY suggest you play doing matchmaking with groups of 4 to see how things work out as i think the problems get amplified without an LMG.
edit: with nedless complex i don't mean it's hard to understand HOW to use the set, just bad implemented mechanics (such as bleed, enemy scalling and veterancy status resistance) are things out of player control that just throw things out of wack because of hidden values they have that makes everything not consistent and you can't work around them that easily