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  1. #31
    CategoryTheory's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by xcel30 Go to original post
    Mostly to be an alternative to burn, because let's be honest fire skills and burn dot damage currently are not that bad....
    But that's mostly talking about how make bleed good overall, there are ways to make the set good without the bleed....
    Well, the question is, do we want to make bleed as good as burn overall? Right now it serves as a nice "placeholder" status effect that can be used to introduce management into things that buff based on it (such as our OD builds), which seems like a decent enough thing to have in the game.

    ...heck you could even make it be like tip of the spear that every 5s the game gives you 20% of your total magazine size as hollow point and throw all the bleed stuff away...
    Yeah, this throws out the management side, so as well as making the set less interesting, it would also want to be less powerful than the correct power level with its current structure. (That's not to say the curent power level is correct.) You shouldn't get power for free; you should have to pay for it in some way, and much of the time you pay via management load and situationality.

    IT always has been about special ammo and hollow points are good, the problem is the mechanics that come with it being bleed to manage the set power is just so frustating to talk about after these two years of constantly pointing out bugs and designs flaws
    Well it's not clear to me that these are design flaws at all, rather than design features. Many of the "issues" with the set that you mention here, such as needing to kick-start it, are exactly what brings interest to it, and extract the very price you pay for more power (though again, I'm not saying the power is currently correctly balanced). If you could get the most powerful build in the game with no management at all, the game would just be boring. It's supposed to make you develop and use your skills at playing in certain ways, not reduce everything to a monotone.

    Personally, I'm no longer convinced that the set is terribly underpowered, though it might be somewhat (I need to practice more with it). If I were going to change it, the kinds of changes that come to mind now would be adding more weapon damage, or maybe trading some for total weapon damage, or something like that. Actually, maybe just adding a separate multiplier for damage against bleeding targets would be the neatest way to give the set some oomph and also continue to distinguish it from other builds.

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    Actually, something to give some team interaction would be really neat. How about replacing the buff for two pieces, currently +15% status effect damage, to "+10% damage from all sources against hostiles which this player made bleed." This would be a separate multiplier, so on the right build easily equivalent to +30% weapon damage or more, it would also work with skill damage builds, and would make management even more interesting. (How many enemies do you proc bleed on for others before you make sure you kill one to keep your buff going?)

    This makes the "one magazine's worth of ammo for a kill" problem even worse, of course, but I think that's a problem even now, and a fixed amount should be given (say, 30 rounds, and the perhaps pack talent could give you 75 instead). Ideally it would seem to be best to base the amount on how much damage the weapon does per round, but that may be overly complex.
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  2. #32
    xcel30's Avatar Senior Member
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    While i do say ways to make powet easier and more free because the other more popular and string builds that have appeared are more free or come more naturally such as Tip of the Spear that GIVES the player signature ammo to kickstarts itself and only requires a hit to get the bonus BECAUSE when it got reworked it needed a KILL with the signature weapon making the bonus hard to get because they are not that good most of the time and some of those guns were made for utility like the crossbow or the rocket launcher needing multiple shoots and being slow to track its targets, made the set unfun and unreliable, which is one of the examples i use of set thst looks natural on paper but weaker on execution that needed a buff.

    Indeed a lot of my suggestions you see is about making ammo be EASIER to get to almost free because in terms of damage is more than enough and i think the chestpiece giving amplified damage is also great. Another set that came much later that is the Hunter's fury also frontloads a lot of its power and has good gear set bonus that are very direct and the 4 pieces serve to make it stronger more naturally than OD does.

    Most sets already buff the player in part by just having it on and then LATER show their true power when player plays it right, OD keeps the player underpowered whrn using the 4 pieces making it very hard to achieve its power sometimes so the effort and rewards are extremely unbalanced here

    Also few other sets become less about managing to get power and about straight up giving player power upfront and if they want more they have to play by the set rules (Hunters Fury, Negotiator, rigger are good example of straight buffs that are about player having all the tools at all time and he needing to apply)

    And few support sets such as Future and Foundry already pretty give bonus fo very simple just using the set or doing almost nothing (having full health gives a damage boost using a healer set and foundry just gives you a good regen for being a tank naturally without creating hoops and loops)

    For your idea of making the status effect set bonus be % damage against enemies under status effect i will just point you out to the EP backpack that would have made also an extremely amount of sense if switched with OD backpack about buffing stats effect duration.

    tl;dr i think OD has power but the conditions to get that and keep it are so finnicky and annoying that is not worth using, so set should be buffed by making it easier to use not by keeping all the finnicky things and instead buffing its power, otherwise you still have issues of failling to kickstart the set when playing in groups and will make the situation worse
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  3. #33
    N3mB0t's Avatar Senior Member
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    i have made a build with this in the past and after some extensive solo and group testing i simply deleted it , reasons where:

    SOLO - its too much a of a gymnich to go through to maintain a buff in damage that is no diferent or better than any red build i could think of.

    GROUP - this is where the gymnich becomes too aparent and unbeareble.

    what i would simply do too make this more viable , without the pred 2.0 mark , would be to make the guns ALWAYS have special ammo , the player already sacrifices atributes to use the gear set , in return the gear set should grant speacial ammo all the time and not force the players to proc it , its enough we have plenty of targets that dont bleed and have to be taken down with less damage atributes.

    as a personal touch and to make the set really unique i would even make the constant special ammo proc diferent status to diferent targets so the user never gets the short end of the stick when using the gear set, kindda like a scorpio but with only one status per target , for examples humans bleed , dogs get disrupted , chungas get blinded , and so on , the balance , same as the scorpio would be to make those status have a fixed damage and duration so no one could stack SE and make it OP.


    just a side note , when i used this build we could also use the Ep backpack to make it overall better and that was very worth it , since that was patched it became pointless to run the set over anything else .
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  4. #34
    Remember too that if you run OD alongside Survivalist then team mates will be benefiting from an additional 10% damage while hollow point ammo is active. So in the build I posted which uses the Carnage LMG we can apply a significant amount of force multiplication just by spraying a group of targets. We need more information about bleed that goes beyond base damage. We know it has behavioural impacts but we know little about their complexity. Does bleed affect NPC accuracy or stability for example. We know Factions have 'morale' so does bleed alter the 'fighting spirit' of an NPC? How useful bleed is will be determined by answering some of these questions.
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  5. #35
    CategoryTheory's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by xcel30 Go to original post
    Indeed a lot of my suggestions you see is about making ammo be EASIER to get to almost free....
    Most sets already buff the player in part by just having it on and then LATER show their true power when player plays it right, OD keeps the player underpowered whrn using the 4 pieces making it very hard to achieve its power sometimes so the effort and rewards are extremely unbalanced here.

    Also few other sets become less about managing to get power and about straight up giving player power upfront....
    Well, that seems to me an argument for keeping the management aspect of this one, in order to differentiate it from the other sets out there.

    If it's underpowered (which it's looking like it is) it would seem to me to better preserve the differentiating characteristics of the set by simply boosting its power. (And a rebalancing so that weapons other than Carnage work well, too, would be in order I think. It would also nice to see some sort of changes that would let other talents, such as Vindictive, work with this too. Perhaps in my previous suggestion the buff provided to other players should have been CHC and/or CHD, to differentiate it from the Survivalist buff. There are probably lots of opportunities for more synergies here. Or perhaps there are some there already that we've not yet discovered.)

    Originally Posted by RichardOshea Go to original post
    Remember too that if you run OD alongside Survivalist then team mates will be benefiting from an additional 10% damage while hollow point ammo is active.
    Well, yes, but doesn't that apply to any status effect build? Many of those seem more powerful, as well as able to spread through means other than shooting.
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  6. #36
    Originally Posted by CategoryTheory Go to original post

    Well, yes, but doesn't that apply to any status effect build? Many of those seem more powerful, as well as able to spread through means other than shooting.
    Absolutely, if you're just looking to make a status effect build then OD is probably the last place you'd look. That said, there's nothing to stop the player rolling 60% more status effect onto the gear or even convert the entire set to function better with status effect skills. Indeed, I've done most of that and had a great deal of fun doing it. The Survivalist group buff certainly applies to any target under a status effect but its ease of applicability is improved by the hollow points if only because they guarantee a status effect. A quick spray from an LMG is 10% on anything you hit at that point.

    Thinking about it, I've seen a Rogue in a 5 v 1 encounter comment on bleeding out and needing to get the hell out of there. They then did just that by withdrawing to the back of the map bringing their contribution close to zero. As a force multiplier in that moment it had extremely high value. Better off dead sure, but I'll take not trying to kill me too.
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  7. #37
    xcel30's Avatar Senior Member
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    Yeah i understand that your wish it to capitalize on making set harder to use but also hit that much harder just disagrees since without any hollow point your character feels gimped compared to a regular high end or gear set build, but i think overcomplicating things in this game creates more frustation of needing all pieces needing to work together to create player power when there's too much to handle with the enemy AI, the arena and positioning you are, enemy types, other players builds and so on, since i don't think other players should be intruding too on how YOUR builds works
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  8. #38
    CategoryTheory's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by xcel30 Go to original post
    ...but i think overcomplicating things in this game creates more frustation of needing all pieces needing to work together to create player power when there's too much to handle with the enemy AI, the arena and positioning you are, enemy types, other players builds and so on...
    Sure. People having difficulty dealing with that should use items that require less management until they feel capable of taking on more.

    The question is, do you see that the current level and type of management required by OD is already done by something else in the weapon damage area as well, and are you trying to move it to a hole that no gear currently fills, or are you just trying to make it more like some other piece of gear in that respect, duplicating that level of management on yet another gearset and leaving a hole where OD currently is? From your descriptions, it sounds like it might be the latter. (I.e., "OD requires more management than X and Y" is not a reason to change it to need less management; it's a reason not to change how much management it needs.)
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  9. #39
    So many idea's and yet this game is crippled by its ****ty online features the modding community could make this game sooooo good..
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  10. #40
    xcel30's Avatar Senior Member
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    The level of complexity it currenetly has is bad in this game, it's already a step on a wrong direction that needs to rectified because it's not a case of strong but hard to use and instead a case of meh but hard to use, my entire point is that the amount of manegement the set already has is bad enough and buffing it to be stronger but keeping the complexity won't solve the situation. I am saying that other strong and more popular gear sets are streamlined in the correct way of Gear sets bonus gives player power --> bonus stacks with talent when played it right for different playstyle, to use efficiently a hunters fury shotgun build is to simply equip the set, get a shotgun and then applying your skill to make sure you are in the right distance to get the bonus from the set, being able to manage how much damage you take in a risk reward situation with the armor on kill bonus and close range stuns.

    The only way for OD to keep the limitations it has would need it to so much more OP to the point it the 8-80 gameplay the set already suffers would become even worse and just bad, the first set of gear sets were considered bad and had to be reworked multiple times because devs made them overcomplicated for low rewards that felt gimmicky for the sake of being gimmicky and not actually good. OD still feels stuck in that loop for me despite the multiple reworks.

    Look i understand your point i'm not saying that i needs change for the sake of changes, i am saying that it needs changes because if the multiple ammount of small issues that keep pilling up that create a barrier for this set to work and then you still have to struggle against that to keep it floating. Making things complicated for the sake of looking like they have depth is also a failure of game design.

    Once again, tip of the spear suffered from the same issue because it need kills instead of hits making the set bonus not activate often enough making the 4 piece bonus most of the time useless. This is what OD suffers and i wish rectified, it doesn't need to be following anything i said by the letter but devs have acknowlodged that this set has had a lot of feedback about being underperforming for more than an year now so anything at this point would be + for me (https://forums.ubisoft.com/showthrea...ctive-gear-set)
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