Personally think that the amplifed damage is better to actually get kills and if you play solo is kinda redundant since let's be honest ridgeway went from bad to okay-ish, the healing you get from it won't really matter but as i assume was going to be the main point, it does make getting ammo a whole lot of heck easier. You are still stuck with bleed being useless but at least your guns with sadist on them will have the buff and ammo more often.Originally Posted by LateNiteDelight Go to original post
Not really a magical solution since not everyone runs "in your face" builds with OD and prefer instead to use bigger magazine weapons, if you want burst damage go with gear set chestpeice, if you want more consistent behaviour go with ridgeway.
End result is a sidegrade
I don't mean bleed doing a bulk of the damage to heavies, I mean as they have the bleed effect on them, my damage to them is increased even more with Carnage. The bleed is just extra decoration on a damage cake thats already baked and frosted.Originally Posted by CategoryTheory Go to original post
Make it do a fixed % of the enemy health so status effect just increases the timer so the overall effectiveness, since higher veterancy enemies already have bigger status resistance it will be less effective on them by regular scalling without worrying about player numbers pulling it down to useless level. Otherwise switch bleed and burn values in most stuff since burn status effect also stun enemiesOriginally Posted by xJdKxZomBiE Go to original post
Right. That part was exactly the point I was trying to make when I said, "it really looks to me as if the status thing is just there to give you something to manage to keep your OD buff, and not something expected to do any damage at all."Originally Posted by xJdKxZomBiE Go to original post
Yes: at Heroic difficulty, completely decorative. Not just "not doing the bulk of the damage," but "doing virtually no damage at all."I don't mean bleed doing a bulk of the damage to heavies...The bleed is just extra decoration on a damage cake thats already baked and frosted.
Just to clarify things, I took some pics of how much damage bleed does. Unfortunately the range gives only enemies scaled for Normal difficulty level, so you'll have to divide everything you see here by three or four in your head.
Here's a normal red enemy undamaged and after 15 s bleed plus the bullet that did it (causing about 7% of the total damage), and here's also an elite at full health and after the same. Remember, this effect is much smaller on Heroic; I just can't easily show you that.
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So it will once in a while help take out a virtually dead enemy that manages to hide just after you proc bleed on him, but as I mentioned, that's an enemy that's only about three bullets away from death, anyway.
It's possibly more clear to compare the effects of sixty seconds of bleed to two seconds of fire from the Carnivore at full buff from OD, Wicked and Perfect Sadist:
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At least at Heroic difficulty, it's hardly an exaggeration to say that bleed is just decoration. At least unless you can convince enemies to hang around for minutes on end letting you proc bleed on them every 15 seconds, while not doing enough damage to you that you have to kill them with a real weapon to stop it.
I'm not familiar with Predators from Division 1, but from looking it up it applied a bleed that was 50% of damage done by bullets. Since this sounds like damage set completely separately from bleed's normal damage (in essence, a separate status effect that is like bleed in all but damage), I don't really see an issue. You just program that as a separate "Predator's Bleed" status with variable damage per application and changing the normal bleed's damage has no effect on that.Originally Posted by xJdKxZomBiE Go to original post
Bleed already does this, as does more or less everything in the game, as all enemies have the same amount of health (IIRC). I think you meant a fixed fraction of the enemies' health plus armour.Originally Posted by xcel30 Go to original post
Well yes i mean a % of effective enemy health counting armor, bleed scales with world tiers and levels, so at being at 30 and WT1 will give you a different values from lv 30 WT5, since the expansion changed to just levels back all enemies take the sam bleed damage at lv 40 player world...problem is as mentioned before it doesn't scale well with groups or upping the difficulty, shooting an red enemy with bleed on normal difficulty is okay, shooting them in hard barely makes a dent and challenging an upwards might as well forget it.
This is just me saying random numbers but dunno make it be like
45% of red enemy health
35% of veterans
25% of elites
15% of named or less
Make it consistent across all dificulties except legendary, change so the Status effect roll on gear just increases the timer so it does bit more damage making it more valuable in higher difficulties nad keep bonus active, so congrats bleed is now good at scalling vs Burn being a flat value, if burn has damage and stun, then bleed should have duration and guaranted effects on it's sides
Sure, but should bleed kill just as fast on Heroic as on Normal? No other damage does. And that's kind of the point of increasing the difficulty level: to make it more work to kill the enemies.Originally Posted by xcel30 Go to original post
I'm not saying that bleed shouldn't be buffed at higher difficulties, but I'd want to know why we'd essentially be removing the difficulty scaling for bleed that we're deliberately applying to all other forms of damage when we raise the difficulty level.
Inccreasing the status effect duration with difficulty seems an even more serious problem: essentially you'd be making certain parts of the game (maintaining the OD buff) easier as you raise the difficulty level.
I'd suggest you refer to health as health and armour as armour, and not ever refer to armour as "health." (As you know, status effects can do different amounts of damage to health and armour, to the point where some affect one and not the other at all, so we do need to distinguish them.) It just makes communication less prone to error if you say "health + armour" or "total HP" or whatever, rather than having "health" sometimes include armour and some not.Originally Posted by xcel30 Go to original post
Mostly to be an alternative to burn, because let's be honest fire skills and burn dot damage currently are not that bad, i mean you probably saw a lobby or two of someone throwing something to ignite enemies while using an EP build and melting multiple waves of enemies until a heavy or mechanical enemy showed up, all while being stunned. If anything i think bleed should be about percentage VS flat. One would always perform as you want it, the other one varies and cna have some good or bad results depending on the build.Originally Posted by CategoryTheory Go to original post
I mean the only other way is to reverse the damage that burn dot does vs bleed so bleed is pure damage and burn is mix of stun with less damage because otherwise i don't see how we can ever make bleed work in thsi game when burn is the better alternative.
But that's mostly talking about how make bleed good overall, there are ways to make the set good without the bleed (as i suggested many options) heck you could even make it be like tip of the spear that every 5s the game gives you 20% of your total magazine size as hollow point and throw all the bleed stuff away, or rework so the set changes bleed behaviour such as letting it stack multiple times in an enemy and the backpack increases the amount if stacks an enemy can have outside of just increasing duration and damage so now every gun is a mini pestilence in a way. Make bleed ignore armor values and deal damage directly to health like poison, change hollow point to mercury tip poison bullets and just make it be a poison gear.
Because if anything the only consistent part of this gear set is that you get special ammo, it has gone from random small amounts of incendiary, explosive and shock ammo, to just flat amount explosive ammo with bleed, to a flat hollow points that just deal extra damage and bleed to a slighty reworked hollow point that scales with magazine.
IT always has been about special ammo and hollow points are good, the problem is the mechanics that come with it being bleed to manage the set power is just so frustating to talk about after these two years of constantly pointing out bugs and designs flaws
In the build I posted I get 7 seconds of bleed ticks with damage ranging fron 35k-42k rounded up depending on the weapon I use. I think it's fair to say that OD's damage value from bleed in that build isn't great. It's not great in a Tier 6 yellow build either, being approximately double in terms of damage and duration. So if bleed has value as a force multiplier in that build then it comes from its affect on NPC behaviour. It also comes from its convenient proccing of hollow point ammo on kill, but in a set designed to generate hollow point ammo I don't think it fair to criticise that; nor is the creation of that ammo dependent on bleed per se but on a status effect being applied on kill. I personally use an airburst and a stinger but that has more to do with TTK than status affect.
Throw in Creeping death and the force multiplier goes up but I don't have the patience to quantify that. I do know that I have no problems using bleed in an Eclipse Protocol build.
It stills needs something though, hence the discussion but I believe that much of a sets value comes from the build in question and the player at hand, and in that moment. The back pack talent is the obvious place to look to change as I think we'd all agree that we'd keep the multiplicative damage.