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  1. #51
    Merphee's Avatar Volunteer Moderator
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    Originally Posted by Sircowdog1 Go to original post
    Perhaps this is better grounds for the point I was trying to make.


    What if spongy NPCs were in conflict, and it was widely expressed by PVP players that they wanted a version of Conflict with no NPCs. However, the devs refused to take the NPCs out or give such an option, but continued to leave conflict-exclusive items locked to that game mode with NPCs.

    I suppose some would continue to be in favor. But I imagine most Conflict players would get tired of the NPCs interfering with both games and balance.

    Now add in the possibility of PVP progress and rewards being lost if the NPCs killed conflict players. I suppose that would go over REALLY well with the PVP crowd.
    It would be a matter of the NPC addition making sense in the greater context of the game mode.

    If Conflict spawned in Legendary heavies, there'd need to be a reason why. Do they drop something valuable that aids the team that kills them? Is the Conflict premise designed to accommodate Heavies without question? When looking at the dark zone, doesn't it establish a reason why rogues can appear?

    I think Conflict players would adapt, since any type of NPC would influence the meta. But if there is no purpose or setup for their existence, then the addition would be stupid. NPCs in Last Stand, for example, gave use credits to buy boosts IIRC.
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  2. #52
    Originally Posted by Sircowdog1 Go to original post
    And the balance for all is wrecked when incompetent devs try to mix them.

    And it will continue to be so as long as players ignore the flaws amd tell others to "get over it" instead of demanding better.
    Balance is a different topic tho.
    But for you it's not about balance, its about a pve dz.
    You act like the only pve zone is as big as 1 of the 3 dz maps.
    And now you're begging for 1 more map to be pve.
    As if the whole open world is pvp/pvevp.

    The darkzone is to big for pvp only.
    That's why the conflict maps are so small.
    No games like tag you're it there.
    That's also why there isn't a pvp & pve dz already.

    The dz map sizes are probably good for a bigger Last Stand but they said more players isn't doable for the servers???


    Anyway here's my demand for a better DZ balance.
    Seperate pve talents and pvp talents.
    This way if something gets nerfed in pvp.
    Pve players can't complain.
    And the other way around.

    Darkzone loadouts (gearset+weapons)
    - Everyone can choose between every gearset.
    - Can be changed when you're in the checkpoint.
    - Every gear/gun has the same attributes.
    Meaning if 2 people walk around with the same set they both have the same crit chance/damage, etc.
    - All weapons have the same talent per type.
    Every AR has optimist on it.
    LMG's have measured on it.
    Etc.
    Talents & attributes change per day/week.

    You can still farm for normal gear but depending on the talent you can only use it in pve or pvp.
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  3. #53
    Sircowdog1's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Merphee Go to original post
    So then we'd have to take a look at where the issue lies. Is the issue gear balancing or is the issue group sizes? These two issues are hot topics between anti dz and pro dz threads.

    One can be mediated with solo servers. The other is forever nebulous.
    We know where the issue lies:

    NPCs are not able to operate with the same skill snd ability as a human player. At least not within the context of a commercial videogame played by thousands of people at a time. Not yet anyway.

    And so that lack of intelligence is made up for by inflating the hitpoints and damage of NPCs, or by giving them access to abilities or powers that players don't have. We see this in the form of bullet sponge and shotty-snipers, as well as skill spam from hunters/rogues.

    But more importantly, when designing a PVP game, the dynamic of what players have vs what NPCs have is a VERY different balance. All the way down to the fundamental levels of things like bullet spread, perks, weapon damage, etc.

    When designing a purely PVE game it's ok to give players extremely powerful abilities or gear. Even in a non-power fanatasy game like division 2 the player has access to some fairly ridiculous potential.

    But when that PVE core has to be forced into a PVP environment, we start to run into all sorts of problems. Abilities have to be nerfed or changed entirely to be "balanced" for PVP. The 1-4 player power dynamic and synergy that's meant to be fair and fun against hordes of NPCs is woefully ill-suited to be used against other players.

    And that's not even considering the utter failure to mitigate or prevent cheating. Or the fundamentally bad idea of pitting casual PVE-oriented players trying to farm some gear against PVP-minded players looking for a fight.

    This is why I keep repeating myself about how it's a bad idea to try and mix PVP and PVE in a game like Division 2. I suppose it's theoretically possible to strike a goid balance. But so far across two games Massive/Ubi have not been able to do that well. BOTH game modes have suffered because of the attempt.

    You're not going to fix this by altering some stats on weapons, or nerfing a meta. Not to mention the concept of losing aspects of the game which might have existed if the efforts and focus of the devs wasn't split.
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  4. #54
    Originally Posted by TxDieselKid Go to original post
    With the sheer number of people who still talk so fondly of Div1's DZ, they must have done something right there. I mean, things evlove and change, and obviously they missed the mark on the current one, but I don't think that means there's no room for it in a Div 3 (whatever that ends up looking like).
    Yep, if it can have a home it should be in div 3. I understand its popularity and how it feels to enjoy a mode of gameplay ,but I would bring us back to the E of PvPvE and just say that it was not revered by all then, nor is it now. That does not mean it has to stay that way or degrade. Improvement not perfection, right?
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  5. #55
    Originally Posted by Merphee Go to original post
    I wouldn't say that's why they added control points. You have to look at Division 1's PVE to see why they did that, and they did that because Division 1's open world PVE was beyond terrible.

    Division 1's open world PVE, or lack thereof, was also the origin of PVE DZ, since "public events" and landmarks only existed in the DZ at the time. If you wanted to experience that style of PVE, then you had to go in there. The LZ only had missions and unrewarding Bounties, up until 1.8.
    Yea oke maybe it's not 100% the reason they added that, but Control Points are looking suspiciously similar to a mix of dz landmarks and extraction zones.
    The only change is you don't use the flare gun to send in a helicopter but for Allies to takeover the landmark/control point.
    (No point extracting non contaminated items)
    So I think it's 84% the reason they added it. Lol
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  6. #56
    Sircowdog1's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by DutchLMB4ever Go to original post
    Balance is a different topic tho.
    But for you it's not about balance, its about a pve dz.
    You act like the only pve zone is as big as 1 of the 3 dz maps.
    And now you're begging for 1 more map to be pve.
    As if the whole open world is pvp/pvevp.

    The darkzone is to big for pvp only.
    That's why the conflict maps are so small.
    No games like tag you're it there.
    That's also why there isn't a pvp & pve dz already.

    The dz map sizes are probably good for a bigger Last Stand but they said more players isn't doable for the servers???


    Anyway here's my demand for a better DZ balance.
    Seperate pve talents and pvp talents.
    This way if something gets nerfed in pvp.
    Pve players can't complain.
    And the other way around.

    Darkzone loadouts (gearset+weapons)
    - Everyone can choose between every gearset.
    - Can be changed when you're in the checkpoint.
    - Every gear/gun has the same attributes.
    Meaning if 2 people walk around with the same set they both have the same crit chance/damage, etc.
    - All weapons have the same talent per type.
    Every AR has optimist on it.
    LMG's have measured on it.
    Etc.
    Talents & attributes change per day/week.

    You can still farm for normal gear but depending on the talent you can only use it in pve or pvp.
    No one is "begging".

    And if the devs took things to the extent you described, they're effectively making two separate games. Which is what I said they should do.
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  7. #57
    Merphee's Avatar Volunteer Moderator
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    Originally Posted by Sircowdog1 Go to original post
    We know where the issue lies:
    NPCs are not able to operate with the same skill snd ability as a human player. At least not within the context of a commercial videogame played by thousands of people at a time. Not yet anyway.

    And so that lack of intelligence is made up for by inflating the hitpoints and damage of NPCs, or by giving them access to abilities or powers that players don't have. We see this in the form of bullet sponge and shotty-snipers, as well as skill spam from hunters/rogues.

    But more importantly, when designing a PVP game, the dynamic of what players have vs what NPCs have is a VERY different balance. All the way down to the fundamental levels of things like bullet spread, perks, weapon damage, etc.
    I don't think one would want the NPCs in the DZ to be any smarter than they are. PVP looms in the air while you're in there. Having to play smart against NPCs in there would be annoying.

    But, Division has, what, three other factions that could be used as DZ fodder while NPCs on the outside could be made much smarter. Not sure how their AI is designed, but given an NPC's ability to avoid grenades, or ability to destroy turrets, the devs have the ability to make them smarter than they are. Probably too smart even to the point where they're reading your controller inputs.

    Originally Posted by Sircowdog1 Go to original post
    When designing a purely PVE game it's ok to give players extremely powerful abilities or gear. Even in a non-power fanatasy game like division 2 the player has access to some fairly ridiculous potential.

    But when that PVE core has to be forced into a PVP environment, we start to run into all sorts of problems. Abilities have to be nerfed or changed entirely to be "balanced" for PVP. The 1-4 player power dynamic and synergy that's meant to be fair and fun against hordes of NPCs is woefully ill-suited to be used against other players.
    Division 2 does feature separate balancing for PVP and PVE, at least on the numbers side. I think the issues comes from the core design of whatever gear or talent there is. As players, we can only play with what is given to us then give feedback or demand changes. Despite all the suggestions of possible gear and talents the game could feature, Division devs never implemented user generated ideas for new talents or gear, as far as I know.

    Originally Posted by Sircowdog1 Go to original post
    And that's not even considering the utter failure to mitigate or prevent cheating. Or the fundamentally bad idea of pitting casual PVE-oriented players trying to farm some gear against PVP-minded players looking for a fight.
    Anti-cheat seems to be a matter of a decision being made during the development of the game before release. If they could, if it's even possible, Division 2 would have BattleEye by now.

    Not sure if something like SBMM for DZ servers would be a good idea, even though that is the only way I see them grouping similar players together automatically
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  8. #58
    Oatiecrumble's Avatar Senior Member
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    I ain't no PVP'er but the times i have been in there it's been fun, never seen any cheaters but i play on console so maybe that's why.

    Two of my sons play Warzone (crossplay with p.c players) and probably they see a cheat every 15-20 mins.

    Still don't understand why people feel the need to cheat.....where is the fun in it.
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  9. #59
    Zathras23's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by IKILLAUNOW03 Go to original post
    It was the Dark Zone that made Division stand out from other games. If they leave the Dark Zone and PVP and Conflict out of Division 3, it wont be the Division franchise anymore
    A Division game without PVP? I have just one thing to say about that......

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  10. #60
    Originally Posted by Sircowdog1 Go to original post
    No one is "begging".

    And if the devs took things to the extent you described, they're effectively making two separate games. Which is what I said they should do.
    I said that as well in the OP's other thread on the feedback suggestions forum.
    But this would be the only solution for in 1 game.
    'Division 3'
    And that's what we are talking about right?
    A balanced DZ in div3?

    Maybe not begging but I've seen you mentioning a pve dz multiple times.
    Have you ever pictured a pve dz in your head?
    Let's see:
    Heroic landmarks are already easy solo.
    In a group its boring AF.
    Imagine doing landmarks with 15 other people.
    You wouldn't even see an npc because 99% hides behind cover with a skill build.
    1% is all of a sudden brave enough to go dps.
    (And they are feeling powerful too while non of their bullets hit.)
    And that is because of the 15 drones & 15 turrets.
    No one is shooting because there is no point doing that.
    And there is you trying to shoot an enemy.
    Not trying because he's hard to kill.
    But trying to get 1 hit before he's annihilated.

    I can tell you first it might be fun as hell, but after an hour you're already getting sick of boredom because it's to easy.
    Guarantee you that if they do a pve dz.
    That you will ask for private servers within a day.
    Especially if you do legendarys solo (but cry about a little pvp)
    You would have no business in a pve dz.
    Yea maybe to get the exclusives that aren't exclusives anymore because DZ is pve now.
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