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  1. #21
    Originally Posted by Merphee Go to original post
    I think players don't consider how impractical removing PVP is, compared to actual PVP improvement. I think that's an issue with taking sides in these PVE vs PVP debates, especially considering rogue-ing being a major part of the game lore.
    If you had to choose between staying rogue or SHD permanently on the character or at least until your next death, I'd agree on the lore point. As it works currently it's just a massive plot hole that makes a lot of the rogue character's reasoning come off as a joke - Kajika's whole deal was that he was pissed that he was essentially given the choice between "stay in the DZ and die as SHD" or "Flee the DZ and possibly be killed by former allies after being labeled rogue." Keener's trigger was much the same. Guess no one told them they could just flip back to SHD and it's no big deal.

    Originally Posted by LateNiteDelight Go to original post
    I think this depends on why you DZ, and exactly what Heartland ends up being in its final form.

    I, personally, think if they can offer a compelling PvP experience in Heartlands, The Division 3 would benefit from not needing to use resources or consider balancing issues for PvP.

    If Heartlands can offer DZ, BR, and Conflict .. with a team solely focused on PvP development & balancing - wouldn't that be better? Doubly so if it was focused on gunplay and eliminated Meta builds by doing away with some gear complexities? And if the fact that it's free increases the player counts?
    I fully agree with this.
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  2. #22
    Originally Posted by TxDieselKid Go to original post
    I would have serious considerations about buying a Division game without a DZ.

    The DZ is still extremely active on both 1 & 2, and still has a ton of players playing in both for a reason. Just because some here may not enjoy the PvPvE experience, and don't want to take part in it, does not mean you should take it away from those that do. And no, Heartland will NOT suffice.

    I'll play Heartland and give it a shot, but I still want a DZ in any Division going forward. I also want raids, and incursions, and extra story missions, and a return to the UG, and P93. But the DZ is probably the second highest ranking thing I want still in D3.
    I agree with that; I don't enjoy it but that doesn't mean I get to take it away -- cough cough nerf every skill in PvP because nerf-to-win mentality. It needs to be made desireable to as many players as possible. PvPvE hmmm I hope you'll all understand me when I say that it tends to be PvP v the rest of us and the rest of us only have so much patience so I think it got hijacked by the PvP community who tend to forget the E part and act like it's their turf and no one else's (which I guess if you can hold it it is, but I hope you get my drift here).

    Balance was aweful for so long but seems about right now. Even though they still complain endlessly about skill use in the DZ which, again, highlights an attitude of unwaranted ownership and entitlement that is seldom reciprocated.

    I dunno. My heart says it should stay but my experience of it won't be missed if it goes, which itself speaks to something fundamentally wrong about it.
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  3. #23
    Originally Posted by LateNiteDelight Go to original post
    I, personally, think if they can offer a compelling PvP experience in Heartlands,
    For starters, I am not convinced it will be a good experience. I am going in with super low expectations.

    I do not enjoy pure PvP usually. I don't like Warzone/Battlefield game types, I don't enjoy CS:GO/R6/Halo types, I'm just not a pure PvP guy.

    I like that I could farm for a build in pure PvE, and then test it out in PvP. I don't like static loadout/characters that are locked to a build/skill set. THAT'S what Div offers that sets it apart from everything else in the PvP/PvE/PvPvE world.


    Originally Posted by RichardOshea Go to original post
    Balance was aweful for so long but seems about right now. Even though they still complain endlessly about skill use in the DZ which, again, highlights an attitude of unwaranted ownership and entitlement that is seldom reciprocated.

    I dunno. My heart says it should stay but my experience of it won't be missed if it goes, which itself speaks to something fundamentally wrong about it.
    I think people (on both sides) need to let go a little bit about expectations, but I know that wont happen. The bullies need to leave the farmers be to some extent, and the farmers need to understand that they are going to get jacked from time to time, and no, it's not fair. But they are NOT forced to go in. It's literally a playground of "any thing goes" and was actually advertised as such before the launch of Div1. It's the wild wild west version of a looter shooter, and anything can happen, and does. So for people to get as upset as they do, doesn't make sense to me.

    As for those who want to nerf skills to the ground, I get it, and understand it to some point, but I do NOT see a ton of skill builds in the DZ and I still to this day play quite a bit of DZ. There was a meta around TU10 when Eclipse Protocal came out (I think it was TU10), but it got nerfed pretty hard and fast. Drones literally don't do any damage as it is now. Sticky bombs and mines are pretty much non-conversations because they are so rare to see. That being said, skills are OP against NPC's, so they should kind of matter against agents also. I mean, for Gods sake, a turret and a drone clear out Legendary's on D2 better than anything else, why wouldn't they do well in PvP? lol
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  4. #24
    xcel30's Avatar Senior Member
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    Oh yeah forgot to edit, but still waiting on a source that isn't just "you know those youtubers", i mean all other recent division related stuff leaked so this one seems a bit iffy for me
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  5. #25
    Merphee's Avatar Volunteer Moderator
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    Originally Posted by Kanaima Go to original post
    If you had to choose between staying rogue or SHD permanently on the character or at least until your next death, I'd agree on the lore point.
    Can't we do that already? After a certain parameter is met.

    I've been playing GTA V recently and thought to myself "would being a 5 star wanted fugitive all the time be fun?"

    Eventually, you'll want to advance the story by playing missions, since that gameplay option is available. Having the cops on you all the time bleeding into story missions with no context would grow tiresome (even if you're just doing a mission about yoga), much like the constant 5 star fugitive gameplay (And I'm pretty sure there's a cheat for that).

    Generally speaking, I think permanent AI rogues for the sake of story make sense, but not so much for the player. Some suspension of disbelief is needed, much like when you escape the cops in GTA and walk around the city as if you didn't just mow down a bunch of cops and RPG'd all of their helicopters out of the sky.
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  6. #26
    Originally Posted by Kanaima
    If you had to choose between staying rogue or SHD permanently on the character or at least until your next death, I'd agree on the lore point.
    It's an argument that non-DZ players make all the time, "Well you went rogue and killed me, so you should be permanently a rogue until you're next death".

    Personally, no, I don't think it makes sense. I do think longer rogue timers make sense, but if you want to talk about ways to improve the DZ experience, that's a different conversation.
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  7. #27
    Originally Posted by xcel30 Go to original post
    Oh yeah forgot to edit, but still waiting on a source that isn't just "you know those youtubers", i mean all other recent division related stuff leaked so this one seems a bit iffy for me
    I really think the (Division) world would be so much better off without youtuber "content creators".

    They all sit there and gossip and put what they think could happen out on videos as what will happen, and rarely are they right. I know that's not all of them, but it's a good chunk of them.
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  8. #28
    Originally Posted by TxDieselKid Go to original post
    For starters, I am not convinced it will be a good experience. I am going in with super low expectations.

    I do not enjoy pure PvP usually. I don't like Warzone/Battlefield game types, I don't enjoy CS:GO/R6/Halo types, I'm just not a pure PvP guy.

    I like that I could farm for a build in pure PvE, and then test it out in PvP. I don't like static loadout/characters that are locked to a build/skill set. THAT'S what Div offers that sets it apart from everything else in the PvP/PvE/PvPvE world.




    I think people (on both sides) need to let go a little bit about expectations, but I know that wont happen. The bullies need to leave the farmers be to some extent, and the farmers need to understand that they are going to get jacked from time to time, and no, it's not fair. But they are NOT forced to go in. It's literally a playground of "any thing goes" and was actually advertised as such before the launch of Div1. It's the wild wild west version of a looter shooter, and anything can happen, and does. So for people to get as upset as they do, doesn't make sense to me.

    As for those who want to nerf skills to the ground, I get it, and understand it to some point, but I do NOT see a ton of skill builds in the DZ and I still to this day play quite a bit of DZ. There was a meta around TU10 when Eclipse Protocal came out (I think it was TU10), but it got nerfed pretty hard and fast. Drones literally don't do any damage as it is now. Sticky bombs and mines are pretty much non-conversations because they are so rare to see. That being said, skills are OP against NPC's, so they should kind of matter against agents also. I mean, for Gods sake, a turret and a drone clear out Legendary's on D2 better than anything else, why wouldn't they do well in PvP? lol
    Conceptually it sounds awesome, but then you throw us lot in there and.... I'm down with the concept, not the implementation and I go in there with the expectations you rightly say should be in place, but again we're all in there and it isn't working for all of us -- part of that being that we each understand 'working' differently.

    As a pure skill builder back then I can say that the negative nerfing began with TU6 and hit its hight with Eclipse and Firestarter. But it's every skill that is moaned about and it kind of always has been -- except for things like revive hives, shields, scanners, jammers.. the ones that don't kill them. Today we have what I consider the absurdity of gun builds running in-sync! I've always argued that a gun build builds to kill and so does a skill damage build so why are they each not allowed to be expressed with any sense of equality?

    Trust me when I say that I can go on and on about this and have fought lengthy battles in this forum in defence of skills in the DZ. The tyranny of the mob won out though. I feel that it should stay but I also feel that it still hasn't hit that sweet PvPvE spot.
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  9. #29
    Originally Posted by Merphee Go to original post
    Generally speaking, I think permanent AI rogues for the sake of story make sense, but not so much for the player. Some suspension of disbelief is needed, much like when you escape the cops in GTA and walk around the city as if you didn't just mow down a bunch of cops and RPG'd all of their helicopters out of the sky.
    In that case I think I disagree about the DZ being an important in-game aspect at least when it comes to the player story/lore. Either that or the story should lean less on rogues being rogues by force and more by choice. It seems like they're slowly pushing the story more and more towards SHD being kind of a joke in terms of professionalism and security, maybe they'll make the swapping back and forth canon to really cement how unreliable it is as an organization.

    Originally Posted by TxDieselKid Go to original post
    And no, Heartland will NOT suffice.

    I'll play Heartland and give it a shot, but I still want a DZ in any Division going forward. I also want raids, and incursions, and extra story missions, and a return to the UG, and P93. But the DZ is probably the second highest ranking thing I want still in D3.
    I'm curious, do you also want raids, incursions and story missions in Heartlands?
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  10. #30
    Sircowdog1's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by IKILLAUNOW03 Go to original post
    It was the Dark Zone that made Division stand out from other games...
    ...as an example of what not to do.


    I'm sorry to all you DZ players who enjoyed a little bit of time in the sun running around having "epic" battles during manhunts. But the overall concept is DEEPLY flawed from the getgo. For every person who enjoyed that pvp, there are 10 or 100 PVE players who found it not only irritating, but outright turned them away from the game mode entirely. For every minute you spent having fun in a manhunt, there are THOUSANDS of minutes of PVE players being annoyed that they're not getting a PVE darkzone or exclusive items.

    EVERY time you kill a PVE farmer in the DZ and get a little chubby, you're doing so at the direct cost of the enjoyment of another player. NO ONE likes or enjoys having their effort and time stolen from them by a gank based on a garbage system that lets players go from friendly/neutral to "enemy" without warning in around a second.

    It's a bad system in every regard. And all you guys preaching its merits MUST take a step back and take a hard look at the flaws as well.

    I have said this hundreds of times in hundreds of threads since the beginning of Division 1:

    If you want to make a PVP game based on risk vs reward that the DZ seems to want to be, then you MUST build the game on that premise 110% from the foundation up. Trying to mix PVE and PVP and force PVE players into it with the "best" gear or exclusives is so deeply flawed and ill-considered that it should NEVER be attempted.

    You PVP junkies are getting heartland. And my heart bleeds for you that you'll actually have to fight other players who not only want to be there, but can't be attacked from the cover of the sh*tty rogue system. That you won't be able to attack players that have no interest in, and who are not gear for, PVP. Boo f**king hoo! You'll actually learn that you're not very good at PVP.

    *NOTE: For those legitimate PVPers who go into the DZ looking only to fight other PVP players, I do have some real sympathy for you. There HAVE been rare bright spots of enjoyable pvp in the DZ. But I hope that you can recognize how rare that is, and that sacrificing an entire swathe of the game while constantly ruining the balance of PVE skills and equipment in the process, isn't worthy. You guys deserve your own game, and it appears that you're getting it. So do the PVE players the same courtesy and wish them the best with their PVE only game.
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