Yooooo.............whens the option select thingy coming out? | Forums

[Knight_Raime]

I expect a lot of people are going to be crap when that comes out. Similar to when they took away the free gb from parry. Everyone who seemed good at the game were terrible afterwards. I'm very excited for it.

I don't really agree with the comparison. Back in those times anyone who wasn't a snail could land parries because we lived in the time where 600ms-800ms lights existed. Swapping guard directions wasn't standardized either meaning some heros it was even easier to bait into a parry because that would take them extra time to swap their guard to try and match your behavior.

I'm more than willing to bet that people aren't actually OSing on the correct timing. Rather they're stuffing on orange with their zone input. Especially when you have console bound players swearing up and down that they can't react to basic 500ms lights I very much doubt they've gone out of their way to memorize the parry timing to actually properly use OS's.

Meaning if all option selects are removed people will still be stuffed out of their mix ups. Because people see orange>they attack. Those who can react are probably capable of still reacting after this change. So it just makes gameplay even more binary. Some heros will still have the ability to option select anyway such as Conq, nobushi, and BP.

Removing OS's won't stop the inherent nature of feinting to neutral to see what your opponent does. Feint to GB won't suddenly become better because there are so many things that will stuff it including dodge attacks. And most heros who rely on basic unblockables will still be stuffed because the problem lies with their link in time and the speed of the unblockable itself.

In short, removing OS's isn't going to vastly improve average play because most average players are not fighting people who are consistently OSing properly. Heros with bad unblockable mix ups will still have bad unblockable mix ups. And it will further divide players above average play because people who could consistently OS with a variety of OS's likely have very strong reaction times. So they will still shut out offense on heros who don't have good offense.

At best OS removing is meant to improve some heros specifically and even that is questionable at best. I'd like Zone OS to stay as it benefits everyone and doesn't hurt gameplay as much if at all as every other OS. Ideally for me they'ed keep it. Make all zones roughly equal in OS capability, give players some indication they were parried via a zone, and stick it as a guide in the games very small amount of tutorials. IN other words it would be made into a mechanic.

If they decide to just axe all OS's entirely then I would strongly suggest that all zones become cheaper stamina cost wise and in most cases make zones chain into combos or given some property to elavate them as a tool instead of leaving them in the dust for a lot of heros. I'd also strongly suggest that they would take a pass at the many heros who have poor unblockable attacks and improve them. That way their offense could actually be better instead of just letting the community pretend that removing OS's solves all their problems before going and complaining about something else that doesn't likely effect them.

[PicoAncus]

Removing OS's won't stop the inherent nature of feinting to neutral to see what your opponent does. Feint to GB won't suddenly become better

In short, removing OS's isn't going to vastly improve average play because most average players are not fighting people who are consistently OSing properly. Heros with bad unblockable mix ups will still have bad unblockable mix ups. And it will further divide players above average play because people who could consistently OS with a variety of OS's likely have very strong reaction times. So they will still shut out offense on heros who don't have good offense.

At best OS removing is meant to improve some heros specifically and even that is questionable at best. I'd like Zone OS to stay as it benefits everyone and doesn't hurt gameplay as much if at all as every other OS. Ideally for me they'ed keep it.

I understand your point of view, and in one thing you're right...Heroes with bad options or variety of attack will continue with a bad attack.

But about one thing I disagree...
Zone OS, and winning a free parry, and often a Light, is unwise, and rewards effortlessly.

The defense idea of ​​this game cannot be based on pressing 2 keys at the same time. It's a good idea to read the game well and hit the 33% parry chance, and continue with the quick reaction. And not just quick reaction.

Parry should be a risky defensive play, otherwise it doesn't make sense.

In the absence of OS, players will try side dash moves, in an attempt to evade the 50/50 game between trying to parry an unblockable and being GB, or not trying and suffering the Unblockable.

When trying to do the side dash, they are also subject to GB if the enemy reads the game well.
So here, I think GB is going to be more effective.

Parrys will require more expertise...and not just because...

[Knight_Raime]

I understand your point of view, and in one thing you're right...Heroes with bad options or variety of attack will continue with a bad attack.

But about one thing I disagree...
Zone OS, and winning a free parry, and often a Light, is unwise, and rewards effortlessly.

The defense idea of ​​this game cannot be based on pressing 2 keys at the same time. It's a good idea to read the game well and hit the 33% parry chance, and continue with the quick reaction. And not just quick reaction.

Parry should be a risky defensive play, otherwise it doesn't make sense.

In the absence of OS, players will try side dash moves, in an attempt to evade the 50/50 game between trying to parry an unblockable and being GB, or not trying and suffering the Unblockable.

When trying to do the side dash, they are also subject to GB if the enemy reads the game well.
So here, I think GB is going to be more effective.

Parrys will require more expertise...and not just because...

If you bait someone into zone OS they lose half their stamina in addition to the damage. Some heros actually have strong heavy parry punishes too.

No if I side dodge attack on orange feint to GB isn't going to catch. You can only feint to GB to reliably catch long dodge attacks which are JJ side dodge heavy and Tiandi side dodge heavy. Every other dodge attack in the game will not be caught by feint into GB unless the person doing said dodge attack massively delays their input or dodged incorrectly. This is actually one of the major complaints people have in regards to dodge attacks. "not enough gb vuln" because they're trying to feint into GB.

You do realize that lights cover 2 options right? You can throw a neutral light to stuff some mix ups. As well as stuffing feint to GB.
You do realize that heros with superior block on dodges cover two options right? If they commit to an attack the superior block will block it. if they feint to GB the dodge attack will stuff it.
You do realize that Cent and Glad can still OS right? Cent can parry on light timing and soft feint to GB if it's not. This will cover more than one option. Glad's opening heavies are 700ms. Meaning he can throw heavy on light time to parry. But feint to block and even punish committed to attacks if it's not a light.

I can keep listing examples. Zone's are not the only things in the game that can cover more than one option. And each option covers different things with their own benefits and draw backs. I straight up don't get the mindset that zone OS's are brain dead no effort skill-less things to use. It's just unneeded toxic mentality. The game naturally has ways to make reads easier to do. In any fighting game there are ways to reduce what kind of reads you're making. And just like other fighters if you rely on said behavior to handle your opponent instead of learning behavior you will get punished for it if the opponent actually baits it.

But that's not how people play. People just want to push buttons. They don't want to think or learn player behavior. This is why we have so many people that ask "how do you handle x hero" or ask for nerfs to heros with workable offense. They don't want to have to learn their opponents behavior. Because that requires paying attention instead of just reacting to what's seen on screen. They want to be told a catch all tool that will always work for them.

I agree at a surface level that option selects for FH can be problematic (compared to other fighters,) because FH combat at it's core is incredibly shallow. Almost all the depth that exists today exists purely because we've twisted the arms behind the devs back and forced them to make kits better. Forced them to give hero's basic tools that should exist to every hero, etc. So when you have something that can cut into said depth it can be harmful. However Zone option selects force players to think about an extra option in most scenarios along with having to think about other factors like hit/block stun, recoveries based off of hit/land/whiff, speeds, etc.
In duels this amounts to basically just another move and not much more. In 4's you have to consider revenge tags as well.

If people are purely against Zone OS because parrying a light nets more reward than parrying their zone that's easily solvable. Make lights and heavies reward the same heavy parry punish and save guaranteed heavies to only be earnable in gank setups, OOS punishes, and GB's. Since GB's are not freely given anyway at this time it matches the theme of making that higher damage punish harder to earn. Not only does this solve the problem of the risk/reward and allows zone OS to stay with the depth it adds, but it also makes being able to react to parry flash/having strong reactions far less rewarding on a general level.

The devs actually wanted to try making lights and heavies reward the same punishment. But people whinged about it because "light parry hard=skill." So they didn't go through with it. As long as players have the mentality that their reaction should net them a strong punish the game is going to suffer in someway.

[PicoAncus]

Right.
But im just talking about OS of zone to parry whatever the side if its unblockable or feinted to light.

Sure that they are more OS, on dodges etc...but i think we will have to deal with these for now, i think.
JJ, Tiandi Heavys, Zhanhu and Kensei are caught a lot with GB on dodges. For an example.

[MrBdur]

The reason zone OS is the MOST problematic is BECAUSE it's accessible by any hero and it is incredibly easy to do. It's too reliable.

All generic OS's are bad though.

Character specific ones aren't as much so because those ones at least have specific inputs. Sure they cover multiple options but thats how those actions were designed. The true option selects like GB and Zone are improper inputs. You are combining one input with another and achieving results from both simultaneously, depending on scenario.

Character specific ones are simply a single input that can defend against multiple options. Those inputs work as intended, unlike Zone OS.

Basically, the only ones that really matter and need fixing are the ones that attack and defend simultaneously.

GB and Zone OS can either parry or get a free GB/Zone. Offense and defense, together in one combined input. This is where the problem lies.

[Knight_Raime]

Right.
But im just talking about OS of zone to parry whatever the side if its unblockable or feinted to light.

Sure that they are more OS, on dodges etc...but i think we will have to deal with these for now, i think.
JJ, Tiandi Heavys, Zhanhu and Kensei are caught a lot with GB on dodges. For an example.

JJ and Tiandi's have more GB vulnerability than every other dodge attack in the game. Zhanhu's dodge attack is forced to always come out 400ms into his dodge. You won't feint to GB him still if he's dodge attacking from neutral Only if you make the read after he hits you with a light be it a neutral, finisher, or dodge light. This is purely because the hitstun forces him to dodge later than if he were to be dodge attacking from neutral. And you're just wrong about Kensei's. Him and gryphon have the exact same dodge GB vulnerability. Gryphon only became slightly easier to GB because they forced his dodge to come out 300ms into his dodge attack which is a 600ms dodge. If it was 500ms you wouldn't be catching it as consistently and we can see that with Valk, PK, and Nuxia since they're all 500ms dodge attacks that come out 300ms into the dodge at the earliest.

Even if your claim was accurate about those 4 heros that's still a very small amount of heros that feint into GB would reliably work on compared to many more it wouldn't But we're getting away from the original point here. People hate dodge attacks because they cannot reliably feint into GB on them. People hate having to feint into neutral often to counter this and option selects. The fact of the matter is based on how the game plays feinting to neutral is what people are still going to be forced to do post OS removal because that's how you learn to fight your opponent. And that's how you punish people who completely rely on one tactic instead of trying to learn their opponent.

I will re-assert what i'd like. I would like zone option select to stay if possible. If it does I want it to be made into a mechanic. If that is not satisfactory enough i'd suggest the devs return to the idea of making parrying lights and parrying heavies give the same reward. This is the best possible outcome as it keeps the depth zone OS brings. It addresses the risk/reward situation. It makes reactionary play less rewarding. And it legitimizes the behavior so people can get over the "not intended" hill.

Failing all of this and the devs decide to remove it. I would like zones across the board to be cheaper stamina cost wise. Most zones should gain the ability to chain. And some might also require an extra property (like undodgable.) and finally any hero that can currently be stuffed out of their regular unblockables (like JJ for example) should get their unblockable buffed. This is to give zones a purpose to replace the one being left by no longer being able to parry. It adds some more flexibility to kits. And it means offense for a lot of heros would get better. Something that removing OS's will not inherently do on their own.

These are the two favorable outcomes. Anything less hurts the game more than it helps.

[PicoAncus]

I want Zone OS to be removed. But Knight_Raime have good points there.

[MrBdur]

I want Zone OS to be removed. But Knight_Raime have good points there.

Knight Raime usually has fairly solid points to make but unfortunately the majority of his opinions come from players he watches, not his own personal experience.

I have personally dueled against him and while he's definitely not a bad player, he isn't quite where I am.

My opinions come mostly from my own experience since I play at a fairly high level and regularly fight against GM duelists.

Removing OS's won't hurt the game. It will benefit it greatly.

I will only say this one more time. I have never intentionally used an OS. Not once in 4+ years. I have still managed to play quite well in that time. I never felt like combat was "shallow". The complexity of combat is always up to the players. It CAN be shallow if you aren't very good, but any hero can be tricky and mind bending when played well.

[LightUpTheEyes]

Knight Raime usually has fairly solid points to make but unfortunately the majority of his opinions come from players he watches, not his own personal experience.

I have personally dueled against him and while he's definitely not a bad player, he isn't quite where I am.

My opinions come mostly from my own experience since I play at a fairly high level and regularly fight against GM duelists.

Shots fired

[PicoAncus]

Shots fired

I don't understand what is the almost general complex of creating these pseudo Social Classes.

All opinions are valid. Whether the player is good, very good, or bad...

There are very good football coaches, who as players have never been great. And is that why they lose quality and knowledge in football? No...

This already becomes a personality complex, where people come to the internet, wanting to be what they can't be in reality...
I'm talking at a general level, because I've noticed that it happens often.
This outburst is not directed at anyone in particular.

Let's see it....