I see that many players who play raids in Discovery mode want to try their luck in Normal mode, but we know that in Normal mode, in addition to having more things to do, communication is one of the most important parts and enemies are "sponges of bullet" with very high damage (bridge between heroic and legendary) while Discovery is more Heroic.
The result of this is frustration, of course... when they call me, I even face the challenge, but already knowing that we won't even go beyond Boomer or Fieser, because besides the fact that most don't even have the idea of what to do, we still have generic builds, almost all offensive (DPS) and none defensive (tank) or technical (doctor).
So, ignoring the most important "player skill" factor (dodge, move, cover, aim, etc) and assume that 8 average players want to play both raids in NORMAL mode and you would be the leader who has the power to decide on the raids. 8 builds, how would you build 8 builds for raids in Normal mode?
For starters, I would ask each one to use a different specialization (two I could repeat, of course...) because they all give some small bonus to the team.
Once this is done, I would ask for 4 DPS, 2 Tanks, 1 Medic and maybe 1 Technician DPS, which would assemble the team like this:
Player 1 DPS: Firewall; (weapons that the player wants, as long as it is a shotgun and a submachine gun); 4 Hunters Fury items (and 2 of these have to be the backpack and the vest); the other two items would be a Badger Tuff (shotgun buff, but all or at least with the first red attribute, difficult but not impossible to get) and the other would be the submachine gun buff (Sokolov Concern)... and abilities: revive hive and striker shield.
Player 2 DPS: Gunner; (weapons of player choice); 4 items from the Striker Battlegear (2 has to be the backpack and the vest), the other two items would be buff items for the weapons the player chose, as for the abilities: revive hive and another one chosen by the player.
Player 3 Doctor: Technician; player choice (perhaps Capacitor or Scorpio?); 4 Future Initiative items (except gloves, but backpack and vest must have) BTSU Datagloves and 1 Alps Summit Armament and skills item, restorer hive and reinforcer chem launcher.
Player 4 Tank: Demolitionist; would suggest Scorpio or Liberty pistol (quick load, lots of damage) but leave player choice; 4 True Patriot items (except vest, but must have backpack), Tardigrade Armor System and the other item would be a Gila Guard. Skills: shield the player's choice and the other his choice.
Player 5 Tank: Survivalist; (same weapon suggestion as above) Foundry Bulwark mask, gloves and holster; Belstone Armory backpack with Vigilance talent; vest named Pointman, by Gila Guard and Sawyers Kneepads; skills: shield player choice depending on choice of weapons and Mender seeker mine.
Player 6 DPS: Sharpshooter; weapons of the player's choice, however one has to be a sniper rifle or common rifle and the pistol should be a D50 or some of the exotic ones; mask named Punch Drunk (Douglas & Harding); Airald Holdings or Providence Defense or Overloads Armament backpack (according to the chosen weapons); vest named Chainkiller (Walker, Harris & Co.); gloves and knee pads following the same idea as the backpack, if I used Airald in the backpack, then I can only use Providence or another buff item for my other weapon and finally the exotic Dodge City Gunslinger holster to buff the pistol damage, as for skills: revive hive and I think maybe the achilles pulse could help the damage even more.
Player 7 DPS: Specialization of the player's choice; weapons of the player's choice; Coyote Mask; 4 Negotiator Dilemma items (backpack and vest) and the other item would be one that buffs this player's main weapon. Skills: revive hive and other player choice.
Player 8 Doctor or DPS Technician: Techinician suggestion, would let the player choose what was best for him: be more of a doctor for the team or be a DPS Technician (skills damage), depending on the others players, it would be even better to have this "DPS" more than another doctor, here he would be free to build his build, but having to be one of two options: either doctor or DPS technician.
Of course there are other things like the CHC limit, some weapon talents that help the team, the MODs and the secondary attributes that I haven't talked about so I don't prolong anymore, in fact I don't even know if all these buffs are cumulative or if the game limits its use, the proposal here is to try to take 8 solo players from Discovery and make them the most "experienced" in the Normal raid, taking into account the BUILD topic... other things like "player skill" or "watched videos on YouTube to learn what to do in the raid" is another story.
For DH I want 8 all red DPS builds with an AR or LMG. No Hunters Furry (what I personally use for most of DH now days), or ND, or anything like that. Just good ole CHC/CHD with the mins around 45%/170%. Run whatever specialization you want, sure it helps to use different ones. Prefer Vig/GC, but will settle for Vig/UnB.
(Going off memory cause it's been several months since I've ran this) IH is much different. I want 4 6-tier skill builds on boss 1 with oxy chem launches, 1 healer (also using oxy chem launcher), and 3 DPS with oxy. Boss 2 I want 7 DPS builds (1 with some sustainability to run in the room for water) with a haz pro/heal build. Boss 3 100% haz pro, one tank, one heal, the rest pure red DPS (no GC). Boss 4, 2 tanks, 2 healers, 4 DPS (again, no GC). I'm also not going down the IH route unless they seem REALLY open to learning/wiping. That's some serious commitment.
Dark Hours is easier, and there are many builds that work fine since the Dev’s changed gear to universal mod slots (you used to have to use a blue mod with Groupo and yellow with Ceska - or the other way around).
The original Providence meta was prior to them changing the mod system, but still works. Perfect glass, vigalence, etc.
For an easy run, 2 demos, 2 survivalists, 2 firestarters, and 2 sharpshooters. All in red builds except the 1 Survivalist, who runs Future healer through Razorback and then switches to drones. The healer is as much for the 25% future buff and being able to overcharge as they are for healing.
Run this way through Razorback except on Boomer, where the 5 adds guys should use negotiators dilemma. The healer shocks boomer with the Scorpio (5 shots while he kneels and one as soon as he stands), for a double down. Boomer should die right at or just after the first computer phase. I use the ND chest, perfect glass, a groupo piece, and the Sig mpx SMG.
Pistol builds work great on Weasel. For simplicity, just sub the gunslinger holster and the punch drunk mask. The firestarter where the boss spawns and the SS in the back.
DPS with Scorpio’s on Buddy and Lucy (healer for the buff).
DPS and drones for razor.
You won’t set speed records this way, but should complete in 20-30 minutes with a wipe or two.
NO, it could be very hard on all bosses, if ppl are working alone, no teamwork,Originally Posted by mrwtw Go to original post
It's indeed a very good idea to sum up a few things for beginners concerning builds. I just hope that enough of the right people will be able to find those information here.Originally Posted by L3AND80 Go to original post
***
So my personal Step 1 would be to check, whether a new player joins a team of experienced agents or whether only one or two experienced agents will try to guide a new crew through one of the raids.
If an experienced team is about to introduce a new agent to either one of the raids, I'd just suggest to the new guy to bring a solid DPS-build. Preferably an AR-build, as they are the most versatile builds. Using only High End items and no Gear Sets. Only the "usual" picks – Contractor's Gloves, Fox's Prayer, maybe Coyote's Mask, a selection of Fenris, Walker & Harris, Czeska, Grupo items. No Memento. Easily efficient DPS-talents like Vigilance, Obliterate, Composure, or Overwatch. Talents like Focus and Glass Canon might dish out more damage but usually aren't as easy to handle for beginners, especially during a raid. Skills: a hive for reviving and a healing skill of choice.
This is a setup that's rather easy to farm, a build that's rather easy to create and a loadout, with which an experienced team can find a role to play for a beginner during every encounter in both raids. That's why this is in my opinion the easiest way to introduce a new player to either Dark Hours or Iron Horse.
If were not talking about just one beginner, let's take a look at...
***
...what I'd consider my Step 2: And that's strictly differentiating between Dark Hours and Iron Horse if we bring noticeably more new players than just one agent. Because both raids are very very different, Dark Hours being the easier task to tackle. Especially concerning the necessary builds.
***
So let's consider a possible setup for DH to be our Step 3:
Basically, everyone can come with the "basic DPS-build" as described earlier. In case we can make it a bit more complex, we could begin with adjusting talents for Boomer. Because agents kiting Boomer might feel more comfortable with Unbreakable. Agents being in cover while clearing adds and waiting for interacting with the laptops might wanna consider using Overwatch to help the whole team. Minor adjustments, but they can come in very handy.
Buddy and Lucy can easily be played with only DPS-builds (yes, there are other variants that experienced teams and speedrunning teams use, but we're talking about beginners here). Especially when everyone's just using a Scorpio and gathering around the dogs. This gun's so damn op that it can ridicule this whole encounter. Mix in one or two backpacks with Opportunistic and you're good.
Weasel and his bodyguards: basic DPS will work just fine
Razorback: Now Razorback is a bit more special. In case this is possible, I'd suggest having one of the experienced agents bring in a build to pulse the drones. One that's capable of pulsing every 11.8 seconds. In this case, one person is enough to repeatedly pulse all waves of the drones. Or alternatively have two agents wearing a build with the Jammer Pulse. Usually everyone has one of those pesky drone/turret-AFK-skill-builds – if it's an ok'ish one it will usually have enough Skill Damage to bring down all the drones of one waves. Then we also need to agents using the Survivalist Specialization in order to have the crossbow ready to oneshot the cover protecting the shaft. But they can just slap the Survivalist on to their favorite DPS-build and everything is fine. Just make sure to have the Specialization saved to a loadout, so that they can switch to this loadout when needed (just wipe once at Razorback to have full Specialization ammunition).
***
Step 4 is of course the most complicated one. Because assembling a team for an as smooth as possible run on Iron Horse with mainly beginners is... hard.
Although Gray is by far the easiest boss and you can still defeat him with only our basic DPS-builds, is far more easy when having one or two supporting builds. To keep things short from now on, I'll just quickly refer to some of the builds we are regularly using. For Gray we have one support build using the Scorpio, Opportunistic and True Patriot. We also have one healer (Future Initiative) for that 25% damage boost and some decent heals. The rest of the team brings in their favorite DPS-builds (full red High End with Glass Canon, Negotiator's Dilemma, mainly ARs... etc.).
Fieser possibly offers the most options for DDs – because here also DPS-builds for short ranges can be used (such as Hunter's Fury). As especially beginners like to run the aforementioned afk-skill-builds – since they do all the work for them – I would make it very clear that those builds are not a good idea for clearing adds during a raid. Do not use those builds while raiding, things can turn ugly pretty fast if only one or two agents think they could win the raid with their drones and turrets.
We usually have one tank'ish build, used by the agent entering Fieser's living room whenever necessary. Then there's a Future Initiative healer again, using a hive and the BTSU Gloves for some hive resets if needed. He's the one staying in the control room and operating all the systems. For quicker destroying of the weak points of the crane on which the crucible moves towards the train, you can also have an additional second person in the control room with more than 94% Burn Resistance to easily shoot the weak points from there. But that's basically it concerning viable or necessary builds here.
I think there are several ways in dealing with Williams. Healers, tanks, shields, foam, decoys, snipers... So depending on how your team wants to play this encounter you will of course again need DPS-builds. But depending on their role (Stationary? Moving? Doing mechanics as well? Shooting from the top of the blast furnace during some phases?) they should have matching talents and guns. For keeping Williams busy we usually have a tank build with Decoy and Ballistic Shield or sometimes with Decoy and Artificier Hive, but always with at least Skill Tier 2 and loads of Hazard Protection. We also like to play with a CC build for the person that has to go up and down the furnace to operate the buttons on the top level. A second person can also go up the furnace to press and hold the button while the top level is on fire or operate the blue vents. This is either a DD with 80% Hazard and 100% Burn Protection or a full red Future Initiative build with 80% Hazard and 100% Burn Protection.
Morozova:
We still prefer playing with one DD for short to medium range for clearing the adds that spawn right next to the train (for each side of course). Another DD for medium to long range takes care of the snipers, mounted mini-guns and the rocket delivery service. Third agent per side is a healer or a damage healer. One healer should use the BTSU gloves for resetting hives and one healer should use FI for the complete 25% damage bonus (so make sure to have that chest piece). The last two agents are tanks. One for picking up keys and hacking the laptop. One for following and staggering Morozova. They both of course have a lot of armor and Bulwark Ballistic Shields. The Gila Guard Pointman is a very good choice for such a tank, as well as Foundry Bulwark, obviously.
Oh and don't forget to have someone bringing a Bulletking to suppress the snipers when going for the third raid key.
***
Sooooo... there are still quite some options left for players how to create their preferred build for a specific role, but you can make sure that a) you have builds for every mandatory role and b) noone brings a build that's either actually far away from being a build or a rather useless build (or worse: one that's even counterproductive for special bosses and phases).
Good explanations, TxDieselKid, mrwtw and Noxious81, yesterday I went to play at IH in Discovery mode and the leader decided to switch to Normal... it had doctors, tank (I had one) and only 2 DPS, we were alive for more than 10 minutes, however Gray's life bar barely reached halfway (lack of DPS), in addition to the extra protection he used all the time, in the end my connection ended up dropping and I didn't even feel like going back, and the guys played until well, after all they resisted for more ten minutes, but the builds didn't help, this was the reason I opened this topic, because decent builds would have made Gray pass and I say that even easily.
EXACTLY, after all we are talking about 8 solo players who are in a group in Discovery mode raids and will try their luck in Normal mode and not a real team of 8 players from clans who are already used to Normal raids, legendary quests, etc.Originally Posted by vm4M9Tz4pB Go to original post
I have my doubts if a "team" of 8 solo players, all with all offensive build can go very far in both raids in Normal mode... sometimes I see suffering even in the first part of the Dark Hours (before the Boomer), so I think most should be DPS anyway (all with revive hive), but at the very least it has to have a medic and a tank with Tardigrade or Vigilance (and a shield to activate, of course).Originally Posted by blueray789 Go to original post
Thank you all for your constructive comments.
I wouldn't pick 8 pre-set builds and run them for all boss encounters. Each boss needs different specialty builds. For example, you would need a drone killer on boss 4 on Dark Hours, but you wouldn't want someone running that build on the other 3 bosses. You wouldn't want to run 2 tanks on all bosses, some don't need any and you'd give up too much DPS. The only consistent specialty build is the healer, but you don't even need that in all places.
There are 2 or 3 specialized builds that are needed on each boss. I look for 3 core players that have experience and can cover these specialty builds. The remaining 5 players only need to meet a basic raid ready build, all red DPS with at least 50 chc and 150 chd preferably running demolitionist.
Reading your comment and others, I see that it's very difficult for Discovery raids players to do well in normal raids, because from what I understand, there has to be a change of builds between the four stages of each of them, different from Discovery, where you takes a build and manages to go from start to finish, unless you have a troll or someone who doesn't know anything about raid mechanics to get in the way, like Morozova's part in IH...Originally Posted by DadKev Go to original post
I thought there was some way to assemble some builds that could help certain types of newbies in normal raid go from beginning to end of them, because you can bet that many don't even know what agents' Loadouts are for.