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  1. #1

    An Huge Issue with The Game's State

    I rarely talk here, but i got to make a point.

    I am for the original direction (approx 2015-2018) of the game.

    Honestly, this game going into fantasy is not only bad from an economic standpoint, but also a creative, story-telling, and directional standpoint. At first, For Honor did this well with only a few fantasy-like gear, but more and more we get more and more fantasy things. This, overall is bad for the game.

    Lets start with something that not a lot of people usually think about in the creation of games, the economic value. To get money, you must be able to make a good game and have it sell well. However, times have changed from the earlier 2000's model of game creation. Ordinary people, also known as Indie-devs, are able to create huge games that can square up to AAA developers. Take Hell Let Loose, or Mordhau for example, both huge games made by only a handful of people, and it still has the polish of a large business model game. With this in mind, it is even more easier to create certain types of games. It just so happens that the Medieval fantasy genre is by far the easiest because of its basic premise yet having room to use their imagination without limits. However, just like all things, this gets really old, so much so that there are thousands of games out there, both Indie and AAA, that are being looked over, or not recognized simply because of its fantasy setting. Not only that, but fantasy itself also sort of makes a blockade for the imagination, many people end up making stereotypical moves when it comes to fantasy genres, rather than breaking the mold. It becomes far too common to see a sword fighting game with a medieval culture, but also having dragons, wizards, magic, and warriors wearing huge armor and weapons. It comes to a point that a lot of games can be categorized in very cookie-cutter topics that come to fantasy, and because people are starting to overlook them, it starts to become less and less profitable to make such games. In this, fantasy games are bad economically. Some may say that fantasy games are abundant because of their profitability, however, I must say this is simply not true in today's world. Take Godfall for example, a recently-published fantasy sword fighting game, with magic, mythical creatures, and a fantasy art style. People have been talking about Godfall, but in extremely small numbers, so much so that it's easy to forget such a game exists. And those who do talk about it, usually say how its fantasy, and thus not original, and thus not worth their 70 dollars. Godfall isn't the only game, so many others are also faltering, way too many to list, and with that in mind, it's obvious a fantasy setting cannot suit an economic standard, especially that of which a large company like Ubisoft needs to keep running.

    That's not the only issue that fantasy has with games, though. The other issue is that it creates a lack of creativity. This was briefly expressed in the previous statement, so I will try to expand it further. People say fantasy is cookie-cutter. And for a large part, it is. Most fantasy games deal with warriors in large suits of armor, some impractical, and weapons that are also fantastical. Then there's magic, mages, wizards, mythical beasts, odd land formations, and for some reason there always seems to be some mythical rock that makes stuff possible (example: Titanite from Dark Souls). Not only does this appear in other games, but it's starting to peak its head within For Honor too. This is wear it starts to get cookie-cutter, because fantasy seem to be this huge goal that a lot of sword fighting games try to use to 'spice up,' their world, like in For Honor, however, it seems that all it does is that it creates just another thing to add to the pile. In this, fantasy is not a good way to take a game, because it limits what it could be, because they all (either intentionally or not) fall into the same tropes.

    Creativity can be a big hinderance to games, especially those that try to break the mold. However, what also limits creativity, or what tries to explain such ideas, is the story telling. It's common to see many games these days, especially those that are fantasy, to take a common story telling position. Usually trying to explore the world, the properties within it, and what is happening. This is all great if done well, like in Dark Souls. However, there are some that limits their potential because of fantasy. Some games have a really interesting plot, but if a sudden change happens, like in the case of For Honor, then it can get out of hand really fast. It is not question that many fantasy games have a lot of contradiction in its story, or its ideas on how the world works. This can even be seen in something as fleshed-out like Harry Potter, where if the world itself is dissected from the books, many things start to not make sense. This is also seen within For Honor as of late as well. For example, what is the difference between Draconite and Corrupted Draconite? Is there actually a Jormengunr? Why do the Wu Lin have Draconite? What is the properties of Draconite? If it is so bad, and kills people effectively, why are the Harbingers hiding a cocoon of Draconite that's immortalizing them? Since the Wu Lin had the rock before anyone else, why didn't they use it before Zhanhu's fire experiment, especially how quickly Horkos discovered how it works? How did this mythical thing come to exist even though the original developers said multiple times in their dev streams that magic is not a part of this game's world? There is a lot of issue in this story because of its more fantastical twist. People start to get lost, and the details start to overlap. No one has a clear idea what's happening, what the developers are trying to tell, or how the world simply works. In this, it's clear the fantasy element limits the story telling. Not only do people start to overlook it because of its cookie-cutter aspects, but also the story becomes way too hard to follow for even dedicated lore masters. From this, an image starts to form that fantasy is not good for For Honor, or healthy in its existence.

    Even though both the story, creativity, and the economics are all great things to bring up when questioning fantasy in a game, perhaps the most important factor out all of these combined is the direction of the game. As stated before, people do not know what's happening in the game because of its mythical rock trope, and trying to half-explain things because generally magic isn't ever fully explained. However players need to look at the developer side of things, and how the come will come out in the future to truly understand the daunting blockades fantasy puts on a game. In the case of For Honor, the original developers stated in their weekly dev streams that this game is supposed to mirror our world until around the year 1000 when the cataclysm struct. Since then, a hole bunch of smaller cataclysms dotted the world until we reach the world we have today. This is a great mix of fantasy and realism, because it combines a fantasy element of an impractical apocalypse, but they try to put a realistic spin on it. In other words, they tried to make a world that was fake, but it felt real at the same time. This was the original direction of the game, as stated in Playing Hard, the For Honor documentary. However, after lead writers changed, the story went down a different path related to that of the stereotypical tropes of fantasy. A magical rock (draconite), impractical armor (exclusing a few sets), flashy designs on weapons, impractical ways of using a weapon (1-handing a zweihander), and with the latest edition of the lead developers hinting that japanese divinations (which are related to the new hero) are causing the drought to occur. Since then, the direction of the game almost turned completely, from telling a story about the grayness of war, and how society stops when its occurring forever, to a big bad antagonist going against a good guy with magic thrown in as a cause for war. It shouldn't have to be stated that people are mad, a lot of people are mad in fact about the direction of the game. No one knows whats happening, the community is as divisive as ever, and changing how a game is made makes the development process as convoluted as disorganized yarn. It creates a hard working enviroment, and makes content harder to put out because the idea of what For Honor is is basically gone. It illustrates perhaps all of the grievances this game has faced within the past year. From lack of content, lack of direction, lack of transparency, and lack of community approval. Fantasy has knocked For Honor down into the depths of constant angry playerbasses and stressed workers. In this large tapestry of issues that has accumulated in the past years, players and developers alike should see the truth of fantasy in games, especially in the modern world. It is hard to do right, it is difficult to produce, and if its used poorly it can end not only the game, but revenue for the company, jobs for the developers, and a great way for the common person to spend their time.

    This is how I feel about the game and its current state.
    I hope you enjoyed reading, I didn't originally intend to make such a long argument, but I hope you enjoyed nonetheless.
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  2. #2
    I read almost done of this. But I'm sure the developers know best, as they work for this game.
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  3. #3
    Fantasy isn't the problem but the storytelling and direction as you mentioned in later paragraphs. I can understand the frustration when a story goes from realistic to fantasy without any indication beforehand but I believe the main issue is how For Honor's story and lore have been and are currently handled. With the campaign aside, they are hinted and not told in-game explicitly. This is part of the reason why things don't seem to make sense.

    I'm okay with it having fantasy elements as long it is done via folklore, mythology, and religion that's related to the factions or heroes in the game. This season appears to be doing that and I feel realism & folklore over pure fantasy is the best direction for For Honor. I want the folklore of all factions to be explored more so we can learn things that are yet to be popularised by TV, films, and other games. This would add some educational value to the game.
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  4. #4
    MayanKingGaming's Avatar Senior Member
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    fantasy is not much a problem, the game only needs better lore and storytelling, me and a lot of people said it already.

    The fantasy begins with the "catastrophic" event already, and most of the fantasy in game is more like sobrenatural/mythical and not like dungeons and dragons. Its fine if they maintain this limit.
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  5. #5
    To be honest, it is a bit fantasy that a sword can stand against Lawbringer armor, it wouldn't even make a dent in it, the Lawbringer could take full salvos from most of the cast without flinching.


    The storytelling is just plain terrible, especially the campaign. When the Conqueror boss at the third quest's is calling the female Warden "him" when telling the officers to "kill him", I immedietely lost any respect. Also, as I keep mentionining, they were too lazy to create NAMES (!) for their main characters, let alone personalities. They seemingly don't care about the entire lore.
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  6. #6
    The problem I don't think is the fantasy, because it becomes a detail but a necessary one, because the game mixes several different historical phases that never coexisted at the same time in the case of medieval knights and centurions, such as Shaolin monks, Ninjas, etc. ...But a limited level of Fantasy. Just the necessary.

    It's not clear why knights in armor don't have HA, and then characters with a leather vest just have HA at all...

    It is impossible to understand how a 200kg fat man has a faster running move...

    It's hard to understand how a Hero with a Claymore has 2 fast lights in a chain...

    It's hard to understand how in so much Gear there are barefoot characters...

    Even within knights, some types of armor and weapons are from different eras.

    I can't understand the neglect that exists about the Faction War Map, which has become completely abstract.

    The story factor of the game started very well, the theme was pertinent. Now little or nothing makes sense and everything becomes thematic.
    A single logical explanation has not yet emerged about the Wu-lin "Invasion", which by the way shouldn't be important either, as it doesn't even enter the Faction War Map.

    I don't understand the introduction of the Wu-lin faction into the story, as the daily quests didn't even adapt to the faction. There are no 6 Match missions with a Wu-lin Hero for example.

    There is no consistency in the story mode, and the events that take place.

    For Honor is only aimed at the meaningless thematic side, and for the commercial side, where they want to release heroes just to sell and not to introduce benefits into the game. Hence the fact that they are Overpowered when paid with Cash, and then Nerf makes them quite inferior (ex: Hitokiri, Jormungandr)

    Even so, imagination begins to be scarce, from the moment they create Warmonger and Gryphon from characters that already exist in Story mode, with pre-made movesets.

    I think the spirit should be competition, whether individual or in a team. There shouldn't be characters that are clearly stronger than the rest.
    All heroes should have qualities and defects in the moveset, but they should be homogeneous under equal circumstances.

    And the loss of interest of the community that gets reduced over time, is due to this... There is nothing to be logical, the desistence of the Devs at the technical level of the Heroes.
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  7. #7
    Originally Posted by PicoAncus Go to original post
    The problem I don't think is the fantasy, because it becomes a detail but a necessary one, because the game mixes several different historical phases that never coexisted at the same time in the case of medieval knights and centurions, such as Shaolin monks, Ninjas, etc. ...But a limited level of Fantasy. Just the necessary.

    It's not clear why knights in armor don't have HA, and then characters with a leather vest just have HA at all...

    It is impossible to understand how a 200kg fat man has a faster running move...

    It's hard to understand how a Hero with a Claymore has 2 fast lights in a chain...

    It's hard to understand how in so much Gear there are barefoot characters...

    Even within knights, some types of armor and weapons are from different eras.

    I can't understand the neglect that exists about the Faction War Map, which has become completely abstract.

    The story factor of the game started very well, the theme was pertinent. Now little or nothing makes sense and everything becomes thematic.
    A single logical explanation has not yet emerged about the Wu-lin "Invasion", which by the way shouldn't be important either, as it doesn't even enter the Faction War Map.

    I don't understand the introduction of the Wu-lin faction into the story, as the daily quests didn't even adapt to the faction. There are no 6 Match missions with a Wu-lin Hero for example.

    There is no consistency in the story mode, and the events that take place.

    For Honor is only aimed at the meaningless thematic side, and for the commercial side, where they want to release heroes just to sell and not to introduce benefits into the game. Hence the fact that they are Overpowered when paid with Cash, and then Nerf makes them quite inferior (ex: Hitokiri, Jormungandr)

    Even so, imagination begins to be scarce, from the moment they create Warmonger and Gryphon from characters that already exist in Story mode, with pre-made movesets.

    I think the spirit should be competition, whether individual or in a team. There shouldn't be characters that are clearly stronger than the rest.
    All heroes should have qualities and defects in the moveset, but they should be homogeneous under equal circumstances.

    And the loss of interest of the community that gets reduced over time, is due to this... There is nothing to be logical, the desistence of the Devs at the technical level of the Heroes.
    Oh I said that fantasy is fine if its controlled in my argument, especially in the earlier segments. What is bad though is wholesale fantasy like World of Warcraft or Elder Scrolls being akin to For Honor.
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  8. #8
    MrBdur's Avatar Senior Member
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    Meh

    The balance of the game is far more important than the lore, story, or fantasy elements.

    The current story being developed is very obviously just thrown together as an easy way to explain away the things being added even if it's lazy and not fleshed out well. So what?

    The most important thing is that the current dev team is focusing more on balance than anything else. We already have 7 reworks this year with at least 3 more AND 2 new heroes coming.
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  9. #9
    Originally Posted by MrBdur Go to original post
    Meh

    The balance of the game is far more important than the lore, story, or fantasy elements.

    The current story being developed is very obviously just thrown together as an easy way to explain away the things being added even if it's lazy and not fleshed out well. So what?

    The most important thing is that the current dev team is focusing more on balance than anything else. We already have 7 reworks this year with at least 3 more AND 2 new heroes coming.
    And it is appreciated, but the team working on the story are different people. And they probably do a worst job than the balance team ever did.
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  10. #10
    @Mr.Bdur

    I understand your point of view.

    And as a rule 90% of my comments are jokes, but in these cases they are not, and I explain why:

    My analysis on this is cold, For Honor is not a barbecue where I bring the spare ribs, you the beers, Goat_of_Vermund brings the beef and Ubisoft supplies the grill...

    Lets get serious about this, For Honor is a product. This product is marketed like many others in all areas of trade in the world.

    And in all other areas respect is the law of commerce where you pay to acquire a certain item or service under the conditions in which the product is presented and advertised.

    No one goes to the supermarket and buys rotten fruit, or buys a car with flat tires.

    And even if you buy the product purchased in perfect condition, and even if it spoils within the guarantee, exchange it simply, or the seller has to fix it. Period.

    For Honor is no different. We all buy a product, and I personally make a point of buying the Season Pass / Battle Pass, because I like and I know that Ubisoft does not live from Top Players, it lives from those who inject money into the game. And this is a reality that we all have to accept.

    But, just as I buy this service, I have the right to want it improved and with the supposed operational functionalities in a viable way.

    When you say that the main thing is to get the Heroes and balance them, I understand what you mean, but I disagree because I understand that this is the principle of mediocrity.

    If the product is not operational in several aspects, it has to be fixed in all of them, because if it is unfixed, it is because of someone's incompetence, who if they were not incompetent would never be disconcerted in the first place.

    And with this I'm not criticizing the Devs, maybe they do what they can with the Resources at their disposal.

    But we users have to be demanding and not settle for mediocrity.

    For Honor is the only game I play on PS4, and with a theme and gameplay that I can relate to, and if I speak, it's for the sake of the game because I want to see it reach its full potential.

    Sorry for the long post guys...
    Good Battles to all of you.
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