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  1. #171
    Originally Posted by CategoryTheory Go to original post

    Stuff


    Goodlord I could facepalm so hard right now. Why has it taken you this long to agree with something that was stated right at the outset; that Fox's Prayer are not a universal best in slot. For heavans sake please don't answer that as I wouldn't do any of the things you're discussing. Open a window!


    * edit.... [in a french accent] some time later...

    I'm just going to continue because I do think it's interesting and more evidence is just that. I believe that theoretical analysis has its place but the player, and the game, have their realities and it's often the case that they do not match regardless of whether they ought to or not. The theory/Virtual Reality problem if you will. Bugs and gear if you won't.

    Here is one build carrying out the same test against what we are assuming is a target out of cover. Once against an armoured invulnerable target and then an unarmoured invulnerable target.

    Armoured:



    Here everything is consistently a crit or non crit and LLP/Pulse should be operating per its description.

    Unarmoured:



    Here we find a spread of damage values that are not shown by the armoured test's crit - non crit predictability. This is most likely associated with the weapon specific out of cover damage, spotter and the linked laser pointer on the range and should be tested further in-game as I see no reason why the target should not be continually pulsed. Nor does the target being armoured produce that behaviour. Of course I may be entirely wrong.
    So with a build that exists I produced the following results:

    Amoured data:
    --------
    W&H:

    Max Crit: 329,917
    Total damage after 51 single shot rounds: 14,705,306


    Fox's Prayer:
    -------
    Max Crit: 318,267
    Total damage after 51 single shot rounds: 12,871,609 -- this includes one free crit @ 318,267 as I forgot to fire the one in the chamber

    Unarmoured data:
    -------
    Fox's Prayer:

    Damage range: 119,594 - 442,869
    Total damage after 51 single shot rounds: 15,758,103


    W&H:
    -------
    Damage range: Crit - 380,191 and Non-crit - 178,493
    Total damage after 51 single shot rounds: 15,177,288


    Given the data that I have, I would indeed prioritise armoured targets over out of cover targets.
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  2. #172
    Ping*
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  3. #173
    Originally Posted by Aspoiu Go to original post
    Oh, pardon me, by all means, do what you wish and enjoy...

    Curious who are "those that do care, or at least find it interesting" at this point. I will be quiet and just observe...
    I care.
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  4. #174
    Imagine_Brata's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by RichardOshea Go to original post

    Amoured data:
    --------
    W&H:

    Max Crit: 329,917
    Total damage after 51 single shot rounds: 14,705,306


    Fox's Prayer:
    -------
    Max Crit: 318,267
    Total damage after 51 single shot rounds: 12,871,609 -- this includes one free crit @ 318,267 as I forgot to fire the one in the chamber

    Unarmoured data:
    -------
    Fox's Prayer:

    Damage range: 119,594 - 442,869
    Total damage after 51 single shot rounds: 15,758,103


    W&H:
    -------
    Damage range: Crit - 380,191 and Non-crit - 178,493
    Total damage after 51 single shot rounds: 15,177,288


    Given the data that I have, I would indeed prioritise armoured targets over out of cover targets.
    Very good explanation, I also have that conclusion without mathematical calculations. It's the same with measured talent. On paper, everyone says it is useless. But if you play it with intimidate and close range run n gun. so it is among the best talent with SMG.
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  5. #175
    Originally Posted by Imagine_Brata Go to original post
    Very good explanation, I also have that conclusion without mathematical calculations. It's the same with measured talent. On paper, everyone says it is useless. But if you play it with intimidate and close range run n gun. so it is among the best talent with SMG.
    It's good to see it happening. I'm pragmatic really; I find it amusing to have to calculate that big angry armoured thing needs go bye bye asap
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  6. #176
    What about using both 👿

    My "max damage" build has (2)W&H + Fox's Prayer

    I went and looked, since I'm not playing much TD2 these days. I have Fox's on 3 of my saved loadouts - all are Rifle or MMR primary builds [and the MMR build is more of a R&G/QuickScope style]. The "Max Damage" build uses the AR more when fighting Black Tusk [it's also my strongest AR build].

    Logging in also reminded me that I never finished the Railsplitter Headshot PfE build I started working on right before Faye dropped. Can't wait for new content to pull me back in..
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  7. #177




    My build.

    I prefer Fox's Prayer, it makes me more flexible, and using Sawyers feels like being tied in a bunker.

    And if I use a shield, I remember Sawyers will not play its role ......
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  8. #178
    Interesting choice to not go with Coyote there.
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  9. #179
    Originally Posted by ATF-Xeno Go to original post
    My build

    Snip* --> Nice.

    I prefer Fox's Prayer, it makes me more flexible, and using Sawyers feels like being tied in a bunker.

    And if I use a shield, I remember Sawyers will not play its role ......
    I mean, if you want max damage Fox's aren't even on the table and it's Sawyer's every time. Like you though, I don't use them because of their play style constraint and how that feeds into AR gameplay and run and gun styles. Slap them into an M1a Marksman build with its lower RoF, greater effective range, stability, accuracy etc and Fox's get smoked anyway. It's playstyle and preference, right, even if there's potential damage left on the table.

    There's a reason why we all don't run around one-tapping with a Regulus -- even if that reason is that we all may not have one!
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  10. #180
    CategoryTheory's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by RichardOshea Go to original post
    Goodlord I could facepalm so hard right now. Why has it taken you this long to agree with something that was stated right at the outset; that Fox's Prayer are not a universal best in slot.
    Dude, I'm the one that stated this implicitly at the outset. All you had to do to understand this was read and understand the very first post, where I said, "under what circumstances in such a build would you not want to use Fox's Prayer kneepads?" You're the one that went off on some sort of tangent related to "someone is wrong on the Internet" or whatever that was. (And up to the post to which I'm replying, you never, ever made an attempt to answer that question as far as I can tell. If you think you did, read the question again carefully and then look again at what you posted.)

    I'm pretty much done with sitting through videos when you could communicate much more quickly by simply writing down what you did and what conclusions you came to. (I trust you to do this reasonably accurately, though including a link to the video from which you drew your conclusions is always a good idea.) But a couple of notes struck me.

    Here everything is consistently a crit or non crit and LLP/Pulse should be operating per its description.
    From a quick look at the video, you're using the LLP, not the Pulse skill. So no, it's not operating "per its description" since the LLP does not pulse things in the range.

    As for the rest of your notes:

    I'm not sure why you keep talking about "damage range" and "highest damage" and so on. Expected damage (again, see Expected value) is more descriptive and less likely to mislead, and works because math. And then, since you're counting actual damage from the game, you could see if the CHC and CHD shown in the game are actually what you're getting in the game, letting us either not have to do such tedious tests all the time or know where there's uncertainty that needs to be tested.

    As for your W&H vs. Fox's and armoured vs. unarmoured targets, you don't write down why there's the difference, much less quantify it (though it appears to be easily quantifiable, as I have shown at least twice), but I can guess why it's happening. Most probably you could have just done the arithmetic and already known what was going to happen there without spending a lot of time in game making videos and counting shots. (If the math doesn't work, I'd be very interested in evidence of this. I've seen it to work when I've tested it against the game.)

    There's also what appears to be a good reason that Fox's isn't performing as well for you as it is for many others, and on reflection the reason is pretty obvious and could have been shown in your first post if you'd simply posted your complete build. (It would have been really obvious if you'd also done the calculations.) I may be wrong, but post complete information about your build and we'll see.
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