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  1. #201
    Originally Posted by Riflemania Go to original post
    Totally agree, they are by far the easiest to kill, i am always more concerned with the enemies behind cover, Controller's, Mech's, Operators, Throwers, RC's etc etc....they are the ones that cause problems.
    Especially Controllers... Kill them, and then what?

    You have a berserk, non-headshottable target that's determined to kill you no matter what. I actually find legendary UGVs easier to deal with when their controller is alive.
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  2. #202
    Sircowdog1's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Kanaima Go to original post
    Especially Controllers... Kill them, and then what?

    You have a berserk, non-headshottable target that's determined to kill you no matter what. I actually find legendary UGVs easier to deal with when their controller is alive.
    I always felt it was a bit nonsense and unfair for those mini-tanks to continue to operate normally when the controller is dead. They should do the same thing turrets do with other factions: Attack random targets, including their own side.
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  3. #203
    CategoryTheory's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Sircowdog1 Go to original post
    I'm surprised you guys feel it's necessary to make special tactics for rushers.
    Well, I can't speak for others, but I don't have special tactics for rushers, beyond "shoot them first."

    What I do have sometimes is a choice between increasing damage to health, damage to armour or damage to out-of-cover, and so I need to consider the various advantages that each one gives me.
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  4. #204
    Oatiecrumble's Avatar Senior Member
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    My priority is mainly below, weaving in-between both (Behind cover & Out of cover)

    • 1st: Wireless Icon: A wireless operator who send out RC bomb, shoot the satchel to stop him. (Behind cover)
    • 2nd: RC Vehicle Icon: If you spot this run, the soldier can deploy a bomb loaded RC vehicle that will explode near you. Shoot it to destroy. (Behind cover)
    • 3rd: Corsair Icon: Sniper – Enemy with sniper rifle. Use flash bang and shoot the head. (Behind Cover)
    • 4th: Wrench Icon: Controller – Stop him from deploying repair turret, shoot on the head. (Behind Cover)
    • 5th: Turret Icon: A controller who can deploy a turret that will start shooting as soon as it tracks you. (Behind cover)
    • 6th: Thrower: Grenade Icon – Equip with grenade, can throw variety of explosives based on faction. (Behind cover)


    • 1st: Assault: Single up arrow icon – Shoot the head, weak enemies. (Out of cover)
    • 2nd: Lightning Bolt Icon: Rusher who carries shotgun, shoot the satchel to release his gas. (Out of cover)
    • 3rd: Medic Icon: Simple to identify it will revive the dead enemies. (Out of cover)
    • 4th: Sticky icon: Enemy will be using a sticky substance to trap you, shoot the drum on their back. (Out of cover)
    • 5th: Military Badge: A empty military badge icon with down arrow design means Tank, it is a strong enemy with shield. (Out of cover)
    • 6th: Leader: Double up arrow icon – Tougher one deals, use explosives. (Out of cover)
    • 7th: Bullet Head with two lines below Icon: Carrying LMG and equipped with armor. Shoot the expose parts of body. (Out of cover)
    • 8th: Clenched First Icon: A machine gunner in your way, the enemy wears a helmet and use LMG. (Out of cover)

    That is a perfect scenario.....quite rare but it works for me.....give or take.
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  5. #205
    Sircowdog1's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by CategoryTheory Go to original post
    What I do have sometimes is a choice between increasing damage to health, damage to armour or damage to out-of-cover, and so I need to consider the various advantages that each one gives me.
    That's what I meant. Perhaps I should have said "strategy" instead. Regardless, Rushers don't seem to me to require any special attention other than "shoot them before they hit you".

    To each their own I guess.,
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  6. #206
    Originally Posted by CategoryTheory Go to original post
    No need to ignore criticals; that's exactly what the concept of expected value is for. There will be a lot of variability if you're looking at a single enemy that dies in a few bullets, but over dozens of bullets it won't be far off, and over hundreds it should be within a few percent.


    This is quite the opposite way of how I go about it. I don't use theoretical values; I use values from the game. This whole thread started because I had Fox's Prayer in my inventory and on a couple of builds, and I realized perhaps that there were a lot of other things in my kneepads list that, at least on my first crack at analysis, I would never use in preference to Fox's Prayer.

    Essentially, I'm just trying as closely as possible to do exactly what the game does. The game adds and multiplies numbers; I add and multiply numbers; if we both do it in the same way we'll both get the same result.
    Sure, it's just not that relevant imho as the damage done is just that and the number of rounds required is just that. Don't misunderstand me here as I have no arguments with the math side of things and I'm not so dull as to dismiss a few thousand years of knowledge, but you're are correct in that you and I go about this stuff quite differently. The results are what they are though, and I'm not arguing with those numbers either.


    Originally Posted by CategoryTheory Go to original post
    That doesn't matter in the slightest. We're not comparing things run by two different people, we're comparing two slightly different builds as used by the same person. Given builds A and B, where B does 5% more damage than A but is otherwise substantially similar (particularly in terms of playstyle), you can expect that any place you have a player running A, if you give him B instead in that same place he'll do 5% more damage. If you say that B works badly in situation X, well, compare it with A in situation X, not A in situation Y.
    I don't agree here as it's not about a given situation or the build at that point but about how a player performs from moment to moment and the math can only guess at that too. Confining it to the same player doesn't help either as somoene else can copy that build and perform much worse simply because of experience and skill. It matters a lot imho and even though I accept that you can describe much with the math its value to a build is only made real once built and its effectiveness determined by the skill of the player. There is a nuanced perspective there and I think it's an important distinction to remember.


    Originally Posted by CategoryTheory Go to original post
    But you can do (and are doing) something about those constraints. If you want to use a shotgun on rushers for one or more of the many good reasons to do so, you know that you'll have DtA from it, and you can then know that if you want to maximize your damage output you should be making sure you're adding non-DtA multipliers from other sources in your build rather than adding more to the DtA multiplier. (Roughly; there are other considerations of course.)
    Some constraints you can work towards mitigating, sure, but not all of them. You can farm for a specific item, optimise, reroll, calibrate it etc etc; you can create strategies and tactics to plug holes in builds or abilities and on and on but all of that has to be done in game and at any given moment your proximity to some mathematical ideal will change. If you haven't dropped a decent shotty then a shotty might not be the best solution at that moment, so you farm for a better shotty and on and on. I can put a shotty in a player's hands but if they keep trying to kill things with it at 30m then I can gently point them toward the damage drop off curve and ask them to try within 10m but if they don't do that then the math behind the shotty is all but useless.
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  7. #207
    Originally Posted by Sircowdog1 Go to original post
    I'm surprised you guys feel it's necessary to make special tactics for rushers. They already move in a predictable path and have less hitpoints than other targets. They're some of the easiest to kill enemies in the game.
    Shotguns are and always have been my solution to rushers and anything else within 10m of me. Didn't take much to think up either Big stick go boom boom. Jokes aside, I think they are just being used as an example. Some muggy purple rushing you isn't an issue but you can get rushed by an SMG dual weilding Elite too and that can be if you lack the burst damage to drop them before they drop you.
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  8. #208
    Sircowdog1's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by RichardOshea Go to original post
    if you lack the burst damage to drop them before they drop you.
    In my somewhat harsh opinion: That's what you get for using an overly defensive build.

    Dead enemies deal no damage(except outcast rushers).
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  9. #209
    Originally Posted by Sircowdog1 Go to original post
    In my somewhat harsh opinion: That's what you get for using an overly defensive build.

    Dead enemies deal no damage(except outcast rushers).
    Nothing wrong with that opinion either; in fact, I'd wager that it's one of the main playstyles. It's common to hear the expression that it's a "good defence to have a good offence". I also hear "dead = zero dps" too but it's discribing the player not the enemy. You can optimise for TTK if you wish or not because they're your choices in a video game with many solutions to the same problem. What I'm personally looking to optimise is fun and there are lots of ways to solve for that too
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  10. #210
    CategoryTheory's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Sircowdog1 Go to original post
    That's what I meant. Perhaps I should have said "strategy" instead. Regardless, Rushers don't seem to me to require any special attention other than "shoot them before they hit you".
    It sounds like we're in agreement since, as you say above in your "other than" part, there is some form of "special attention" (or whatever you care to call it) they need. I'd put it more precisely as, "bad things happen if you don't kill them before they reach you." (Maybe not all that bad, but at the least an unnecessary distraction from the rest of the battlefield.) I don't know if that's the same thing you're saying or not, but I think we can all agree that it's more often worse to take a couple of extra seconds to kill a rusher than a even a few extra seconds to kill distant enemy in cover.

    Originally Posted by Riflemania Go to original post
    My priority is mainly below, weaving in-between both (Behind cover & Out of cover)
    I suspect, though, that if you have two incoming rushers, you don't kill one and then turn to killing a distant controller before coming back to the other rusher. If you do both rushers first, that seems to me to be setting them at higher priority than controllers.

    RC Vehicle Icon: If you spot this run, the soldier can deploy a bomb loaded RC vehicle that will explode near you. Shoot it to destroy. (Behind cover)
    Are you sure that RC vehicles don't receive the DOOC bonus? At any rate, I'm not sure how much it matters for them, since they seem explode with one hit. Drones, however, are another matter; on Heroic they often take several shots to kill, so it would be nice to know if they receive DOOC damage or not.

    Originally Posted by RichardOshea Go to original post
    Some muggy purple rushing you isn't an issue but you can get rushed by an SMG dual weilding Elite too and that can be if you lack the burst damage to drop them before they drop you.
    Precisely.

    Originally Posted by Sircowdog1 Go to original post
    In my somewhat harsh opinion: That's what you get for using an overly defensive build.
    I don't think that defensive builds are an issue in this conversation; we're talking about high- or all-red builds here, after all. It's simply the case that this is not an on or off issue; there is no build where without DOOC (or with DOOC, for that matter) you're guaranteed never to have a rusher reach you. You're simply trying to set that probability of that as low as reasonable when balanced against the cost of "I feel it's taking me too long to take out guys in cover," and increasing your DPS significantly against out-of-cover enemies at the cost of slightly lower DPS against in-cover enemies tends to be a good exchange for this, for many people at least.

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    As an unrelated aside:

    Originally Posted by RichardOshea Go to original post
    Shotguns are and always have been my solution to rushers and anything else within 10m of me. Didn't take much to think up either Big stick go boom boom.
    Those used to be my solution, too, until I discovered Unwavering. That basically removes the reload time problem that Shotguns give you and you also get a much longer effective range.
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