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  1. #151
    Sircowdog1's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by CategoryTheory Go to original post
    Is not 555k better than 543k? The results listed above are in the general range of what I'd expect to see, and the sort of thing my calculations produce.
    Yes, in terms of potential maximum hits against a non-armored target in the open. But I also allowed that the damage from W&H would likely be higher against an armored target.




    Originally Posted by CategoryTheory Go to original post
    What's the advantage of W&H for run-n-gun if it does less damage, per above? I would think that in run-n-gun you'd be seeing more enemies OOC (because you're pushing them to move around) so it wouldn't be better damage against targets in cover, would it?
    It was meant more as a general statement of the concept, not a specific definition. Perhaps instead I should have siad: "If you have trouble with veterans and elites, spec for W&H". The point I was trying to make was to build for the role you want to fulfill, or want to be good at.
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  2. #152
    Imagine_Brata's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Sircowdog1 Go to original post
    Yes, in terms of potential maximum hits against a non-armored target in the open. But I also allowed that the damage from W&H would likely be higher against an armored target.
    .
    And W&H is very good against Rikers because most of them have armor
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  3. #153
    Oatiecrumble's Avatar Senior Member
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    First off i'm not into testing as it does not bother me due to having a decent build with decent stats and good synergy is all it takes......most of all good gameplay and understanding of the mechanics BUT i thought i would do this....even though it don't mean much as it's all situational.

    Weapon used on all builds:

    • Assault Rifle: Glory Daze (Near Sighted to make it easier too read stats)
    • Assault Rifle Damage: 15%
    • Health Damage: 21%
    • DMG to target out of cover: 10%

    Mods: 3 x 5% CHD (15% total) with Extended Mag

    Gear used on all builds (apart from Kneepads):

    Mask: Providence

    • WD: 15%
    • CHD: 12%
    • CHC: 6%
    • CHC: 6%

    Chest: Providence (Unbreakable to make it easier too read stats)

    • WD: 15%
    • CHD: 12%
    • CHC: 6%
    • CHD: 12%

    Holster: Providence

    • WD: 15%
    • CHD: 12%
    • CHC: 6%

    Backpack: Ceska (Vigilance)

    • WD: 15%
    • CHD: 12%
    • Weapon Handling: 8%
    • CHD: 12%

    Gloves: Grupo

    • WD: 15%
    • CHC: 6%
    • CHD: 12%

    Tested:

    • Kneepads: Fox's Prayer
    • WD: 15%
    • DMG to target out of cover: 8%
    • CHD: 12%

    See Pictures...

    • Kneepads: Walker & Harris
    • WD: 15%
    • CHC: 6%
    • CHD: 12%

    See Pictures...

    • Kneepads: Sawyer's Kneepads
    • Armor: 170.000
    • Explosive Resistance: 10%
    • Health: 18,935

    See Pictures...

    1st: Sawyer's Kneepads





    2nd: Fox's Prayer Kneepads





    3rd: Walker & Harris Kneepads





    NOTE: The figures you see for (Damage Last Hit) is the highest i got from Body Shots from each kneepad, it never went any higher.

    P.S: Sorry about the resolution, was a nightmare and had to use a different source due to Game DVR not uploading pictures right now from Xbox
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  4. #154
    Sircowdog1's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Imagine_Brata Go to original post
    And W&H is very good against Rikers because most of them have armor
    Well, their heavy gunners have the same "armor" on their body/head that chungas have. But mostly they have a lot of extra health. ARs(and damage to health in general) is sooooooooo good vs them.
     1 people found this helpful
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  5. #155
    Sircowdog1's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Riflemania Go to original post
    NOTE: The figures you see for (Damage Last Hit) is the highest i got from Body Shots from each kneepad, it never went any higher.
    So those were critical hits? It seems to mirror what was shown on RichardOshea's vid.
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  6. #156
    Originally Posted by Sircowdog1 Go to original post
    So those were critical hits? It seems to mirror what was shown on RichardOshea's vid.
    It appears so. Here's another video that should deal with most of the OP's criticism, although I'm certain they will find more.



    Walker & Harris:

    Max Crit: 329,917
    Total damage after 51 single shot rounds: 14,705,306

    Fox's Prayer:

    Max Crit: 318,267
    Total damage after 51 single shot rounds: 12,871,609 -- this includes one free crit @ 318,267 as I forgot to fire the one in the chamber


    Are Fox's Prayer Knee Pads a universal best in slot? My answer to this question is and always will be that what is best in slot is that which produces the most fun. Min-maxers and other player architypes may hold a different view to that and they can take these numbers and apply whatever value they attribute to them.
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  7. #157
    Oatiecrumble's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Sircowdog1 Go to original post
    So those were critical hits? It seems to mirror what was shown on RichardOshea's vid.
    Yes
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  8. #158
    CategoryTheory's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Sircowdog1 Go to original post
    Yes, in terms of potential maximum hits against a non-armored target in the open. But I also allowed that the damage from W&H would likely be higher against an armored target.
    And in terms of damage to armoured targets in the open (total damage, not maximum hits). Adding 8% to a multiplier is better than a separate 5% multiplier when the two are close in value, as DOOC and DtA always are.

    Also, adding 8% to your DOOC does not mean that you must remove 5% DtA. If you replace weapon or crit damage (both are in the same already-very-high weapon damage multiplier) instead of DtA, you get both.

    Originally Posted by RichardOshea Go to original post
    Then you're not paying close enough attention as I have already stated why, and that your assertion about strained was correct...
    You have not. You have said things like, "In that video you are correct in pointing out that strained procced and that is the source of different crit values for the same weapon in that video," which is nothing to do with different NON-crit values.

    But I have no idea why you keep going on about things like Strained, since that does not affect non-crit damage. (At least according to the description in the game; if you think it's doing something different than what the game says it is, you should demonstrate this.)

    You seem overly concerned with the highest individual damage value you produce, rather than your total damage output. There's not much relation between the two.

    Thanks for providing build details in a readable form, finally. It's not quite complete: for example, I can see from your images you're using an AR damage buff from the Survivalist specialization, though you don't mention that, and you don't mention your Keener's watch settings. None the less, I'll guess the full +15% from specialization and full bonuses from the watch, and this gives us a place to start to figure out what's going on with your builds.

    Oh, and in particular thanks for providing the screenshots from your stats tab; those make analysis much easier since it lets me do intermediate checks on the calculations without having to ask you for values.

    I should note that below when I use the term "expected" in conjunction with things like the damage from critical hits, this is not a guess: this is the mathematical concept of expected value, essentially the average damage you'll get per round when a certain percentage of the hits are critical and the rest are not. Without understanding expected value, you won't be able to understand how one can easily deal with things that produce probabilistic amounts of damage.

    • Glory Daze base damage is 47952, from the spreadsheet. If you check base damage in game, you should see exactly the same, 48.0k.
    • When calculating weapon damage modifiers below, I leave out the +25% for Vigilance unless I mention otherwise. It's not a permanent buff, and so the game does not include it in the stats it displays.
    • You have a weapon damage modifier (Wdmg) of 10% watch + 15% specialization + 15% AR + 6 × 15% gear attributes + 5% W&H brand = 135% for W&H, and 130% for Fox's.
    • The above should produce a (non-crit) weapon damages of 47952 × 2.35 = 112687.2 and 47952 × 2.30 = 110289.6, which exactly match what the game shows in the stats tab.
    • Your calculated CHD is 186% (25% base + 20% watch + 15% 3rd Providence + 15% Grupo + 6 × 12% gear attributes + 2 × 12% gear mods + 3 × 5% AR mods). This agrees exactly with what's shown on your stats tab. With 60% CHC this gives you an expected critical hit damage buff of 1.86 × 0.60 = 1.11. In other words, with 60% CHC your average damage per shot when talents such as Vigilance are not proc'd will be 47952 × (2.30 + 1.11) = 163516.3.


    Here I take a moment to make a note about your CHC. By my calculations it's 10% watch + 15% 2nd Providence + 10% Česká + 5 × 6% gear attributes + 1 × 6% gear mod = 71%, which is wasting resources for two reasons:

    First, there's obviously a 60% cap on CHC and so you've got 11% CHC doing nothing for you. (Fox's, fortunately, doesn't have a CHC attribute that W&H does so at least there you're at 65% and are not wasting that entire attribute.)

    Second, and more subtly, weapon mods generally give you a choice of 5% CHC or 5% CHD, but an attribute or gear mod gives you a choice of 6% CHC or 12% CHD. For this reason you should avoid using weapon mods to boost your CHD unless you really have no better use for them, and instead use them in preference to gear attributes and mods to boost CHC, freeing the gear attributes/mods for providing more value in the much higher CHD they can provide.

    There are limits on what you can do with gear attributes, of course, since you can recalibrate only one, and you can have only one CHD attribute. But you could in this build at the very least replace the CHC gear mod with CHD, ending up with the same 60% CHC but 12% more CHD than you have now. Ideally you'd find ways to replace instances of CHC on attributes with gear that can offer things like OOC, health and armour damage multipliers, just as Fox's does for you here, providing some large damage boosts. If this brings your CHC down, you can replace CHD weapon mods with CHC to bring it back to 60%, since these provide only a 3% boost to expected weapon damage (not even total damage!), which is less than even 2% on another multiplier.

    You should also note that in builds like this where you don't have any talents that depend on rate of crits (and this would include Strained, which does not depend on rate but just on having a subsequent shot any time with 0.5 s of the previous one) you can sometimes improve things by letting CHC fall slightly below 60% in trade for more CHD. For example, if you're at 63% CHC being capped to 60% CHC with 150% CHD giving 90.0% expected crit damage, and you can replace a 6% CHC with a 12% CHD, that will give you 57% CHC × 162% CHD, for 92.3% expected crit damage.

    Back to the calculations:

    When you actually fire the rifle in the range, your Wdmg should be increased by 25% from Vigilance, and you have multipliers of 1.21 multipliers from the AR's health damage buff and 1.1 from the AR's DOOC buff. So against a target without armour:

    • Non-crit damage with W&H should be 47952 × (2.35 + .25) * 1.21 * 1.1 = 165943 and crit damage should be 47952 × (2.35 + .25 + 1.86) *1.21 * 1.1 = 284656.
    • Non-crit damage with Fox's should be 47952 × (2.30 + .25) * 1.21 * (1.1 + .08) = 174588 and crit damage should be 47952 × (2.30 + .25 + 1.86) * 1.08 = 301934. These figures are 5.2% and 6.1% higher, respectively; you get more advantage from 8% as your Wdmg increases with the crit because DOOC is multiplicative, of course.


    If these are not the numbers you get in the range, we need to figure out what else in your build is affecting them. (Or figure out what's wrong with my calculations above. It's now late and I'm tired, so of course there's always the possibility of errors in my arithmetic.)

    But as it stands, Fox's has the advantage here on any individual crit or non-crit hit, and given that the CHC doesn't change between these builds (the loss of the 6% CHC on W&H still leaves you at the cap of 60% CHC), it should be clear that your ratio of crits to non-crits won't change, so there's nothing there that I can see to remove the advantage of Fox's demonstrated above.
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  9. #159
    Originally Posted by CategoryTheory Go to original post
    And in terms of damage to armoured targets in the open (total damage, not maximum hits). Adding 8% to a multiplier is better than a separate 5% multiplier when the two are close in value, as DOOC and DtA always are.

    Also, adding 8% to your DOOC does not mean that you must remove 5% DtA. If you replace weapon or crit damage (both are in the same already-very-high weapon damage multiplier) instead of DtA, you get both.



    You have not. You have said things like, "In that video you are correct in pointing out that strained procced and that is the source of different crit values for the same weapon in that video," which is nothing to do with different NON-crit values.

    But I have no idea why you keep going on about things like Strained, since that does not affect non-crit damage. (At least according to the description in the game; if you think it's doing something different than what the game says it is, you should demonstrate this.)

    You seem overly concerned with the highest individual damage value you produce, rather than your total damage output. There's not much relation between the two.

    Thanks for providing build details in a readable form, finally. It's not quite complete: for example, I can see from your images you're using an AR damage buff from the Survivalist specialization, though you don't mention that, and you don't mention your Keener's watch settings. None the less, I'll guess the full +15% from specialization and full bonuses from the watch, and this gives us a place to start to figure out what's going on with your builds.

    Oh, and in particular thanks for providing the screenshots from your stats tab; those make analysis much easier since it lets me do intermediate checks on the calculations without having to ask you for values.

    I should note that below when I use the term "expected" in conjunction with things like the damage from critical hits, this is not a guess: this is the mathematical concept of expected value, essentially the average damage you'll get per round when a certain percentage of the hits are critical and the rest are not. Without understanding expected value, you won't be able to understand how one can easily deal with things that produce probabilistic amounts of damage.

    • Glory Daze base damage is 47952, from the spreadsheet. If you check base damage in game, you should see exactly the same, 48.0k.
    • When calculating weapon damage modifiers below, I leave out the +25% for Vigilance unless I mention otherwise. It's not a permanent buff, and so the game does not include it in the stats it displays.
    • You have a weapon damage modifier (Wdmg) of 10% watch + 15% specialization + 15% AR + 6 × 15% gear attributes + 5% W&H brand = 135% for W&H, and 130% for Fox's.
    • The above should produce a (non-crit) weapon damages of 47952 × 2.35 = 112687.2 and 47952 × 2.30 = 110289.6, which exactly match what the game shows in the stats tab.
    • Your calculated CHD is 186% (25% base + 20% watch + 15% 3rd Providence + 15% Grupo + 6 × 12% gear attributes + 2 × 12% gear mods + 3 × 5% AR mods). This agrees exactly with what's shown on your stats tab. With 60% CHC this gives you an expected critical hit damage buff of 1.86 × 0.60 = 1.11. In other words, with 60% CHC your average damage per shot when talents such as Vigilance are not proc'd will be 47952 × (2.30 + 1.11) = 163516.3.


    Here I take a moment to make a note about your CHC. By my calculations it's 10% watch + 15% 2nd Providence + 10% Česká + 5 × 6% gear attributes + 1 × 6% gear mod = 71%, which is wasting resources for two reasons:

    First, there's obviously a 60% cap on CHC and so you've got 11% CHC doing nothing for you. (Fox's, fortunately, doesn't have a CHC attribute that W&H does so at least there you're at 65% and are not wasting that entire attribute.)

    Second, and more subtly, weapon mods generally give you a choice of 5% CHC or 5% CHD, but an attribute or gear mod gives you a choice of 6% CHC or 12% CHD. For this reason you should avoid using weapon mods to boost your CHD unless you really have no better use for them, and instead use them in preference to gear attributes and mods to boost CHC, freeing the gear attributes/mods for providing more value in the much higher CHD they can provide.

    There are limits on what you can do with gear attributes, of course, since you can recalibrate only one, and you can have only one CHD attribute. But you could in this build at the very least replace the CHC gear mod with CHD, ending up with the same 60% CHC but 12% more CHD than you have now. Ideally you'd find ways to replace instances of CHC on attributes with gear that can offer things like OOC, health and armour damage multipliers, just as Fox's does for you here, providing some large damage boosts. If this brings your CHC down, you can replace CHD weapon mods with CHC to bring it back to 60%, since these provide only a 3% boost to expected weapon damage (not even total damage!), which is less than even 2% on another multiplier.

    You should also note that in builds like this where you don't have any talents that depend on rate of crits (and this would include Strained, which does not depend on rate but just on having a subsequent shot any time with 0.5 s of the previous one) you can sometimes improve things by letting CHC fall slightly below 60% in trade for more CHD. For example, if you're at 63% CHC being capped to 60% CHC with 150% CHD giving 90.0% expected crit damage, and you can replace a 6% CHC with a 12% CHD, that will give you 57% CHC × 162% CHD, for 92.3% expected crit damage.

    Back to the calculations:

    When you actually fire the rifle in the range, your Wdmg should be increased by 25% from Vigilance, and you have multipliers of 1.21 multipliers from the AR's health damage buff and 1.1 from the AR's DOOC buff. So against a target without armour:

    • Non-crit damage with W&H should be 47952 × (2.35 + .25) * 1.21 * 1.1 = 165943 and crit damage should be 47952 × (2.35 + .25 + 1.86) *1.21 * 1.1 = 284656.
    • Non-crit damage with Fox's should be 47952 × (2.30 + .25) * 1.21 * (1.1 + .08) = 174588 and crit damage should be 47952 × (2.30 + .25 + 1.86) * 1.08 = 301934. These figures are 5.2% and 6.1% higher, respectively; you get more advantage from 8% as your Wdmg increases with the crit because DOOC is multiplicative, of course.


    If these are not the numbers you get in the range, we need to figure out what else in your build is affecting them. (Or figure out what's wrong with my calculations above. It's now late and I'm tired, so of course there's always the possibility of errors in my arithmetic.)

    But as it stands, Fox's has the advantage here on any individual crit or non-crit hit, and given that the CHC doesn't change between these builds (the loss of the 6% CHC on W&H still leaves you at the cap of 60% CHC), it should be clear that your ratio of crits to non-crits won't change, so there's nothing there that I can see to remove the advantage of Fox's demonstrated above.

    Wrong person. If you're discussing the build with glory daze that ain't mine. Make a video already, I'll judge your build, not you if that's what you're concerned about? Come on, this is actually getting interesting now! Just drop the superciliousness and we'll all be much happier.
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  10. #160
    CategoryTheory's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by RichardOshea Go to original post
    Here's another video that should deal with most of the OP's criticism, although I'm certain they will find more.
    I've only had a very quick look at it, but aren't you not just adding the 8% DOOC from Fox's, but also removing 5% damage to armour at the same time, and then using a heavily armoured target for your test? And then you're also using a weapon that already provides 10% DOOC, thus reducing the advantage of Fox's. (It's a basic rule here that increasing a smaller multiplier by a certain amount is worth more than increasing a larger multiplier by the same amount; that's the whole principle behind my suggestion that Fox's is often better in the first place.)

    If so, sure, you've found a case where (assuming you are mostly shooting armoured enemies, or you value DPS to armoured enemies over overall damage) you're better off without Fox's. That was perfectly predictable from my method of calculating this stuff in the first place, and was exactly where the subsequent discussion about Contractor's Gloves and Yaahl was going in the first place.

    But, as using my method of calculation will also show, you can do better by balancing your health, OOC and armour damage buffs by not as a first restort using Walker, which provides only 5% DTA, and instead distributing the buffs among gear and attributes that provide 8% or more. For example, from an AR you get up to 21% damage to health, covering that multiplier, leaving you with DOOC and DTA. There you'd want to go with 10% DOOC on the AR and 8% DOOC from Contractor's, rather than 5% DOOC from Walker, unless you've got some particularly valuable use for the extra attribute you get with Walker.

    This will vary by weapon, of course. With a shotgun you can get up to 12% DTA as one of the core attibutes, so there you might go for damge to health (up to 9.5%) or out-of-cover (up to 10%) as a secondary attribute, and then use Fox's or Yaahl for the other one.
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