🛈 Announcement
Greetings! The Division forums are now archived and accessible in read-only mode, please go to the new platform to discuss the game
  1. #121
    Originally Posted by Riflemania Go to original post
    You could just provide RichardOshea a video removing all the extraneous variables etc etc yourself.......basically everything you said above put/show in your video.

    Problem solved.
    I'd like to see that too, but I already know it alters nothing as I now have four vids running this experiment across both weapons, firing 50rnds at single shot rate ensuring strained doesn't proc (ignited on the other won't anyway as the target never dies) and at 50rnds constant burst, and across three reloads and no matter how it's done the order of superior damage is Sawyer's then Walker & Harris and then Fox's.

    I now have columns and columns of numbers demonstrating this, videos clearly showing it and first hand experience of it as, heck, it's my build so I know what it can and cannot do. It's like you have said from the beginning the difference is small and really not that big a deal but Fox's are not superior.
     2 people found this helpful
    Share this post

  2. #122
    CategoryTheory's Avatar Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Tokyo, Japan
    Posts
    675
    Originally Posted by Riflemania Go to original post
    You could just provide RichardOshea a video removing all the extraneous variables etc etc yourself.......basically everything you said above put/show in your video.
    Problem solved.
    The problem's already solved: I've provided a model that is much more easily and quickly used. All the assumptions in it about how the game works have been verified by several different people (in fact, I got all of them from others here who had investigated the workings of the game before I even started playing it). If you think some of the workings of the model don't match the game, such as Damage to Out-of-Cover not being a separate multiplier, you can feel free to provide evidence to that effect, but even RichardOshea's video itself provides evidence (albeit unreliable evidence) that the model is correct, as I already pointed out in a previous message.

    Basically, I've provided the precise workings here. If you guys think that they're incorrect, it's up to you to show which details are incorrect. Posting a video of an obsucured build where even you guys can't explain some of the behaviour in it (such as why the non-crit damage is different at 2:44 and 2:51) does not constitute any sort of proof that the model is not correct. It's far more likely that your experiment was confounded, especially given odd behaviour like that in it.
    Share this post

  3. #123
    Oatiecrumble's Avatar Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    London
    Posts
    4,850
    Are your calculations taken from written/stat info or tested in the shooting range?.....Only asking as i don't trust either of them, as i have said before the game is a bit skew wiff to get any 100% proper readings.

    Bit like the activity reports: 4 of us doing legendary DUA, 3 x Dps (my 3 sons) 1 x Blinder Firefly build (me)......guess who got the most kills....yep...Me....by far.

    I tend to find the best way to test out stuff is by playing the game, i go for the feel of kills over stats, if i feel that using a paticular item makes me feel more powerful i will go with that.
    Share this post

  4. #124
    Originally Posted by CategoryTheory Go to original post
    The problem's already solved: I've provided a model that is much more easily and quickly used. All the assumptions in it about how the game works have been verified by several different people (in fact, I got all of them from others here who had investigated the workings of the game before I even started playing it). If you think some of the workings of the model don't match the game, such as Damage to Out-of-Cover not being a separate multiplier, you can feel free to provide evidence to that effect, but even RichardOshea's video itself provides evidence (albeit unreliable evidence) that the model is correct, as I already pointed out in a previous message.

    Basically, I've provided the precise workings here. If you guys think that they're incorrect, it's up to you to show which details are incorrect. Posting a video of an obsucured build where even you guys can't explain some of the behaviour in it (such as why the non-crit damage is different at 2:44 and 2:51) does not constitute any sort of proof that the model is not correct. It's far more likely that your experiment was confounded, especially given odd behaviour like that in it.
    It's not just a belief anymore: it's a justified, true, belief. Strained certainly procced three times for three rounds but it did that for both knees at different points, the next video uses both weapons and ensures that strained does not proc at all for the 50 rnds single shot and it doesn't exist on Pyromaniac anyway, it does proc throughout the full clip burst and three mag tests though but that's consistent across the board. The numbers don't lie and the facts are that Fox's are not superior in this build and likely not superior in many builds.

    I'm not going to allow you to shift the burden of proof as I've already proven my point. You have not though and I still think you posting your own video would make a much more convincing argument than the whataboutery you've used so far. You should understand that if you do manage to demonstrate your perspective clearly that I will be nothing but grateful to you for it. As it stands right now, I can only be suspicious of your unwillingness to do what you ask of others.
    Share this post

  5. #125
    CategoryTheory's Avatar Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Tokyo, Japan
    Posts
    675
    Originally Posted by Riflemania Go to original post
    Are your calculations taken from written/stat info or tested in the shooting range?
    The individual figures come from various sources of in-game stats, firing range tests and tests against actual enemies, often from multiple sources.

    It would help if you looked at the specific figures I'm using and said which ones you're doubting. For example, do you think that when the game says an attribute provides +12% CHD that it is not actually providing that? Are you dubious that it's on just a particular piece of gear, or on any piece of gear, or as a gear mod rather than an organic attribute, or what? Do you believe +12% CHD is providing different amounts of CHD on different pieces of gear?

    ...guess who got the most kills....yep...Me....by far.
    How did you determine that that's because of your build and not just because, say, you were more aggressive and shooting more enemies?
    Share this post

  6. #126
    Imagine_Brata's Avatar Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    713
    Originally Posted by Riflemania Go to original post
    I tend to find the best way to test out stuff is by playing the game.
    I also test when I play. because the firing range does not show the correct values. I always check how many bullets I have left in the weapon, when I test gears. And if I change fox prayer / contractor gloves to 2 walker harris, then I have 3-4 more bullets left.
     1 people found this helpful
    Share this post

  7. #127
    Same here, my in-game experience shows WH marginally better than Fox + Contractor (at least for a AR + SMG build).
    Share this post

  8. #128
    Oatiecrumble's Avatar Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    London
    Posts
    4,850
    Originally Posted by CategoryTheory Go to original post
    The individual figures come from various sources of in-game stats, firing range tests and tests against actual enemies, often from multiple sources.

    It would help if you looked at the specific figures I'm using and said which ones you're doubting. For example, do you think that when the game says an attribute provides +12% CHD that it is not actually providing that? Are you dubious that it's on just a particular piece of gear, or on any piece of gear, or as a gear mod rather than an organic attribute, or what? Do you believe +12% CHD is providing different amounts of CHD on different pieces of gear?

    I doubt that eveyrthing it says is not 100% correct, which i expect from a game that is highly based on stats....the game makers are human afterall.

    Here is something to dwindle over, if you look at the bakers dozen talent it says "Missed shots from cover have a 100% chance to return to the magazine" well there is been times where i have point blank shot an enemy and the bullet has done no damage and a bullet is missing from my magazine....hit reg?...who knows.....like i said the game is a bit skew wiff.


    How did you determine that that's because of your build and not just because, say, you were more aggressive and shooting more enemies?

    I was using Blinder Firefly 95% of the time, it does zero damage....."Blinder Fireflies deliver a payload that temporarily blinds targets, similar to a flash-bang grenade. While this deals no damage, blinded enemies can be vulnerable to other attacks as they often stagger around out of cover. Blinders can also target up to four enemies without mods, as opposed to the maximum of three for the other variants"

    See above.
    Share this post

  9. #129
    Oatiecrumble's Avatar Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    London
    Posts
    4,850
    Originally Posted by Imagine_Brata Go to original post
    I also test when I play. because the firing range does not show the correct values. I always check how many bullets I have left in the weapon, when I test gears. And if I change fox prayer / contractor gloves to 2 walker harris, then I have 3-4 more bullets left.
    ^^ This....100%
    Share this post

  10. #130
    Sircowdog1's Avatar Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    3,953
    Originally Posted by RichardOshea Go to original post
    no matter how it's done the order of superior damage is Sawyer's then Walker & Harris and then Fox's.
    Sawyers at 30 stacks? How many W&H pieces?

    Sorry, I probably missed the initial post where you listed the gear. I just want to be clear about what's being tested. Because it sounds like for a run'n'gun build W&H would be the way for non-rifle builds.
     1 people found this helpful
    Share this post