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  1. #1
    CategoryTheory's Avatar Senior Member
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    All-Red (and High-Crit) Builds and Fox's Prayer

    Let's say one's going for a build with as much weapon damage as possible. Typically this would also include around 60% CHC and high CHD, though not always. (Using the Pestilence LMG is one example where 5% non-crit weapon damage is preferable even to 12% CHD, since crit damage doesn't apply towards Pestilence's debuff.)

    Assuming you've got max or near-max attributes for all kneepads, under what circumstances in such a build would you not want to use Fox's Prayer kneepads? These provide +8% damage to targets out of cover, which is a separate multiplier I believe, and so even if you're not using a rifle still worth more than the additive +10% weapon damage buff you'd get from another brand specific to your weapon.

    In other words, can I get rid of all my weapon-damage-enhancing kneepads except for Fox's Prayer?
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  2. #2
    Sircowdog1's Avatar Senior Member
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    If you're not using a rifle, the question becomes whether or not 8% DtoC is going to be better than a 10% weapon bonus from a brand pice plus CHC or CHD instead of DtoC.

    I don't know enough about the math under the hood to tell. But I've always felt that builds with Fox's Prayer and Contractor's Gloves had something wrong with them if not using a rifle or LMG.

    Or to simplify things, look at a comparison between a Groupo Sombra knee vs Fox's prayer. Assuming both knees has exactle the same weapon damage and first attributes, the comparison is direct: 27% CHD vs 8% DtoC.

    Crit works vs everything 60% of all hits.
    DtoC is almost everything, with rare cases of targets in cover.

    If someone knows the better of the two, that'd be great.
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  3. #3
    Cadillac-Jack's Avatar Senior Member
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    Alot depends on your playstyle as well.

    Run n Gun maybe,

    Also factor in other talents on other gear and what you want to build. those knee pads are not the be all end all of builds.

    Take my Rifle build i don't use them and i do more damage to NPC's that they could ever give me. same with my Pestilence build (i usually go with Raw damage multi additions) MY AR/SMG build doesn't use them(Fox's/Contractors or Sawyers) either, i do enough damage and quick enough that the 8% is virtually negated. (I play Heroic only)

    Also if you already have max CHC and CHD i doubt that 8% will be noticeable.

    My Rifle build uses.

    Vigilance +25% damage
    Overwatch +12% weapon damage
    Sawyers knee pads +30% weapon damage + immunity from explosive stagger..

    Sawyers may not be branded but they give so much more than the 8% DtoC, by the time the stacks run out or you move the NPC's are dust and re-stack, even then you can use the stack on the run for 10 seconds.

    As a side note if you are doing Legendary or speed running leagues (that maybe a different matter all together) but i cannot comment on that don't play legendary. or speed runs.

    PS: Alot of builds are a personal choice.
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  4. #4
    Sircowdog1's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Cadillac-Jack Go to original post
    Alot depends on your playstyle as well.

    Run n Gun maybe,

    Also factor in other talents on other gear and what you want to build. those knee pads are not the be all end all of builds.

    Take my Rifle build i don't use them and i do more damage to NPC's that they could ever give me. same with my Pestilence build (i usually go with Raw damage multi additions) MY AR/SMG build doesn't use them(Fox's/Contractors or Sawyers) either, i do enough damage and quick enough that the 8% is virtually negated. (I play Heroic only)

    Also if you already have max CHC and CHD i doubt that 8% will be noticeable.

    My Rifle build uses.

    Vigilance +25% damage
    Overwatch +12% weapon damage
    Sawyers knee pads +30% weapon damage + immunity from explosive stagger..

    Sawyers may not be branded but they give so much more than the 8% DtoC, by the time the stacks run out or you move the NPC's are dust and re-stack, even then you can use the stack on the run for 10 seconds.

    As a side note if you are doing Legendary or speed running leagues (that maybe a different matter all together) but i cannot comment on that don't play legendary. or speed runs.

    PS: Alot of builds are a personal choice.
    I dont necessarily agree with the comparison between Fox's Prayer and Sawyers. It's a blue item vs an all red item. There's no way Sawyers does more damage than FP. Unless sawyers is multiplicative? Even then I'd be highly skeptical.
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  5. #5
    Cadillac-Jack's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Sircowdog1 Go to original post
    I dont necessarily agree with the comparison between Fox's Prayer and Sawyers. It's a blue item vs an all red item. There's no way Sawyers does more damage than FP. Unless sawyers is multiplicative? Even then I'd be highly skeptical.
    Well after doing a good set of tests with the identical builds but swapping Sawyers to Fox's these are the numbers.

    With Sawyers knee pads.

    Headshot crit numbers damage 4,998,270
    Body shot crit numbers damage 3,398,652

    With Fox's prayer knee pads

    Headshot crit numbers damage 4,856,433
    Bodyshot crit numbers damage 3,345,139

    Irrespective of our views (i prefer the sawyers knee pads anyway) but that +30% stacked damage does make a difference and with the immune to stagger. especially with a rifle build or LMG build.

    With my Pestilence build

    Sawyers knee pads

    crits are 315,517 (Pestilence tick @ 884K)

    With Fox's knee pads

    crits are 309,848 (Pestilence tick @ 820K)
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  6. #6
    Sircowdog1's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Cadillac-Jack Go to original post
    Well after doing a good set of tests with the identical builds but swapping Sawyers to Fox's these are the numbers.

    With Sawyers knee pads.

    Headshot crit numbers damage 4,998,270
    Body shot crit numbers damage 3,398,652

    With Fox's prayer knee pads

    Headshot crit numbers damage 4,856,433
    Bodyshot crit numbers damage 3,345,139

    Irrespective of our views (i prefer the sawyers knee pads anyway) but that +30% stacked damage does make a difference and with the immune to stagger. especially with a rifle build or LMG build.

    With my Pestilence build

    Sawyers knee pads

    crits are 315,517 (Pestilence tick @ 884K)

    With Fox's knee pads

    crits are 309,848 (Pestilence tick @ 820K)
    Were those rifle builds? Keeping in mind I already was skeptical of Fox's Prayer on non-rifle builds.

    Also, doesn't Sawyers take time to tick up to 30%, and loses the buff when you move too much? While I can see the numbers are comparable at max stacks, there's something to be said for the Fox's Prayer damage requiring zero setup(other than NPCs that cower in cover and aren't a threat any way).
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  7. #7
    Cadillac-Jack's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Sircowdog1 Go to original post
    Were those rifle builds? Keeping in mind I already was skeptical of Fox's Prayer on non-rifle builds.

    Also, doesn't Sawyers take time to tick up to 30%, and loses the buff when you move too much? While I can see the numbers are comparable at max stacks, there's something to be said for the Fox's Prayer damage requiring zero setup(other than NPCs that cower in cover and aren't a threat any way).
    Yest top numbers on both pads was an identical rifle build, but just swapping the knee pads out. bottom numbers is my Pestilence build. (OP mentioned the Pestilence specifically )

    Thats why i put in my Original post it also depends on your playstyle

    Run n Gun maybe (then fox's prayer knee pads will probably be better)

    Set up time for the 30% stack is 10 seconds

    But i'll say even if you stack up the sawyers you can still run and have that extra damage for 10 seconds(yeah i know its not alot of time.

    But then again with an SMG/AR build you could effectively use the sawyers.

    Alot comes down to player choice and preference and what they are comfortable with.
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  8. #8
    Oatiecrumble's Avatar Senior Member
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    Sawyers Kneepads are nice especially in a group where you are not the only one being shot at, makes keeping the buff a lot easier.....Solo not so great as every bullet/nade etc etc is aimed at you so there is a lot more movement.

    All very situational.....all depending if in group or not and depending on what you are doing.
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  9. #9
    Oatiecrumble's Avatar Senior Member
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    Oh and i find best thing by far for a rifle build is Stability + Accuracy over CHC + CHD........I ain't no number cruncher but you deffo feel the difference.
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  10. #10
    Sircowdog1's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Cadillac-Jack Go to original post
    Yest top numbers on both pads was an identical rifle build, but just swapping the knee pads out. bottom numbers is my Pestilence build. (OP mentioned the Pestilence specifically )

    Thats why i put in my Original post it also depends on your playstyle

    Run n Gun maybe (then fox's prayer knee pads will probably be better)

    Set up time for the 30% stack is 10 seconds

    But i'll say even if you stack up the sawyers you can still run and have that extra damage for 10 seconds(yeah i know its not alot of time.

    But then again with an SMG/AR build you could effectively use the sawyers.

    Alot comes down to player choice and preference and what they are comfortable with.
    It's just too bad you can't recalibrate exotics. I'd put a red core on Sawyers faster than an NPC sprinting for cover.
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