1. #11
    Originally Posted by Tio_Croc Go to original post
    With which heroes do you play?

    I'm waiting for Freeze vid about Goki's headbutt cuz I fought a rep 76 dude that could react to it. Not only bash option selects, now ANY kind of option selects destroy goki. You only lose to a Goki when you want.

    I don't care about 4s. I just know the guy was trash in duels, and now he is even worse. When I duel a high rep Glad I'm letting he win at least 1 cuz I know he just came from a defeat streak.
    Why is my hero(s) relevant? I follow the game's comp scene and have discussions with comp players and people who actively participate in scrims and tournaments. My knowledge is perfectly servicable.

    As I already mentioned even if you can consistently react to goki's headbutt it still can chain into his heavy which for the reasons i've already listed is very good. If you're dodging his headbutt you don't have the time to option select him unless he always goes for full charge after headbutt. So you're still forced into respecting goki even if you dodge his headbutt. Just like you had to respect Gryphon after his shove before they gutted the move.

    It's great that you don't care about 4's. However, consider the following. FH is a team based mode first and foremost. So as long as a hero is good there that's what matters. However we can look specifically at duels just for you.

    In regards to goki. He's high A tier now if not bottom S. Why is this? First lets look at his bash. His bash is semi unreactable for the average player. That's good. He now has access to said bash on side dodges. This is good because it gives him a tool to punish bashes now. This also lets him punish bash selects besides just feinting to neutral. I've already touched on why the headbutt is good due to what it can do after whiff so I won't touch it again. The last benefit i'll mention in regards to headbutt is it's presence in chain. He now has a 500ms bash in chain. Which is incredibly strong and compliments his variable heavy mix up. You have to make a choice on to dodge or wait and see what his heavy is. So this means you can't just dodge attack buffer after chain. Since goki can choose to not commit and parry you. or just let a raw chain heavy go and do a lot of damage.

    Now, defensively goki has an extra tool in the form of his neutral hug. Because it has 100ms of GB vulnerability there are situations where Goki can option select with it. Primarily this happens with people who try to feint and find a parry. More hilarious though is Goki can actually use it to punish GB selecting. If Goki baits you into it via the mix between neutral light or neutral heavy and you try to GB select on light timing you'll get hugged. Goki also gets this off a light parry making health swings more in his favor in general. Then we can also see how his GB punish gives him situational punishes if near a wall/corner as it allows him to get an extra hit on you.

    To put it shortly goki has more defensive tools now and you're forced to respect his mid chain. He's much better than he was. Period.

    As far as glad goes he hasn't moved much in duels and if he did it would be a position or two up. This is because Glad still has stupid defensive capabilities and they got buffed a bit. Glad's dodge bashes/lights got better I frames meaning he can avoid things better. Glad still has 700ms neutral heavies which can be thrown and buffer feinted on light parry time to both parry a light and recover in time to block/punish a heavy if it's not a light and committed to. His heavies still have insanely good reach meaning he is still very much capable of spacing you out. And he still has his zone attack which is still difficult to punish for most of the cast.

    Then you add the fact that he can chain off of zone and toe stab. Chaining it off of toe stab means he can punish incorrect dodges and actually land skewer and you can't GB him out of skewer. Meaning you're forced to wait and maybe parry if you don't have a dodge attack. Chaining off of zone into skewer is great as well because it's not only leaning into Glad's mix up from a strong defensive position but now you can't just dodge and hope to punish glad if he commits instead of feinting. It's another thing the attacker has to make a read on. Toe stab not being able to unbalance OOS people effected his max punishes in duels a little bit. But the rework also gave him some new punishes that lead upwards of 70 damage which is still rather insane. Glad also still retains blind on his parry counter and parry counter which should lead into skewer. So it makes that mix up a bit more reliable on defense as well.


    So yeah. Neither hero is trash in duels at this point. Glad wasn't before. Isn't now. Goki was before. And is one of the better duelists now.
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  2. #12
    [QUOTE=Knight_Raime;15453406]Why is my hero(s) relevant? I follow the game's comp scene and have discussions with comp players and people who actively participate in scrims and tournaments. My knowledge is perfectly servicable.
    I was just curious. But yeah if you just play with S tier heroes Goki will always seem fine cuz you'll always easily beat him.

    As I already mentioned even if you can consistently react to goki's headbutt it still can chain into his heavy which for the reasons i've already listed is very good. If you're dodging his headbutt you don't have the time to option select him unless he always goes for full charge after headbutt. So you're still forced into respecting goki even if you dodge his headbutt. Just like you had to respect Gryphon after his shove before they gutted the move.
    There I know you are not as servicable as you think. Most dogde attacks done early hit before hyper armor arrive. Mathematically what you says doesn't make sense. It is 500ms for the headbutt + 500ms to the HA begin, total of 1000ms and most dogde attacks have no more than 800ms (counting with the 200ms of dogding to access them).

    It's great that you don't care about 4's. However, consider the following. FH is a team based mode first and foremost. So as long as a hero is good there that's what matters. However we can look specifically at duels just for you.
    thank u :3

    In regards to goki. He's high A tier now if not bottom S. Why is this? First lets look at his bash. His bash is semi unreactable for the average player. That's good. He now has access to said bash on side dodges. This is good because it gives him a tool to punish bashes now. This also lets him punish bash selects besides just feinting to neutral. I've already touched on why the headbutt is good due to what it can do after whiff so I won't touch it again. The last benefit i'll mention in regards to headbutt is it's presence in chain. He now has a 500ms bash in chain. Which is incredibly strong and compliments his variable heavy mix up. You have to make a choice on to dodge or wait and see what his heavy is. So this means you can't just dodge attack buffer after chain. Since goki can choose to not commit and parry you. or just let a raw chain heavy go and do a lot of damage.
    First, it is not unreactable for the average player. Fought a rep 76 overall and he had no trouble with it. Semi reactable is staright up BS. A move is unreactable or trash, with nothing in between.
    As I already explained his chain headbutt is not strong, as it can be option selected with most dogdes. It is not bad, as it works when the opponent is not expecting it. But using it as it was a good attack is not very good.


    Now, defensively goki has an extra tool in the form of his neutral hug. Because it has 100ms of GB vulnerability there are situations where Goki can option select with it. Primarily this happens with people who try to feint and find a parry. More hilarious though is Goki can actually use it to punish GB selecting. If Goki baits you into it via the mix between neutral light or neutral heavy and you try to GB select on light timing you'll get hugged. Goki also gets this off a light parry making health swings more in his favor in general. Then we can also see how his GB punish gives him situational punishes if near a wall/corner as it allows him to get an extra hit on you.
    Don't make me laught. It is exacty in the same state of Lawbringer's Long Arm. Just as reminder, people make challenges with it and see it as a meme. Curiously I saw in
    Jondaliner (youtuber that usually memes about Long Arm) calling Hug the new Long Arm. There's your super viable option select move lol.
    For punishes it is good tho.


    To put it shortly goki has more defensive tools now and you're forced to respect his mid chain. He's much better than he was. Period.
    Let's wait to see how he is going to be in the next months when players will be used to his new kit. Now people are already option selecting and reacting to almost everything. I don't doubt he will be close to what Shinobi is now.

    Won't talk about Glad cuz I don't play with him so don't know much. What I know is, your comment seems resonable, but I still smash Glads way easier now, and every Glad main I know disliked the changes so...
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  3. #13
    Your high if you think going is bad he doesn't even need to optiom select a parry he can just throw heavy there's no gb vulnerable point if thrown immediately
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  4. #14
    @Tio_Croc

    "I was just curious. But yeah if you just play with S tier heroes Goki will always seem fine cuz you'll always easily beat him."

    who I play doesn't have a bias on how I view other heros. My only bias is that I strictly concern myself/talk from the top % of players. That's where the game shines. That's where the game is actually fun to watch and discuss. All my information and understanding comes from comp.

    "There I know you are not as servicable as you think. Most dogde attacks done early hit before hyper armor arrive. Mathematically what you says doesn't make sense. It is 500ms for the headbutt + 500ms to the HA begin, total of 1000ms and most dogde attacks have no more than 800ms (counting with the 200ms of dogding to access them)."

    I was speaking from mid chain with headbutt on where you're quoting here Light hitstun reaction is 400ms. Goki's uncharged heavy finishers are 900ms with HA at the earliest of 433ms into the attack. If you do a dodge light after hitstun that's 400ms+ at least 100ms before you input a dodge attack of a dodge attack of 500ms. That means it will be 1000ms before your dodge attack will land. So goki should interrupt you. This doesn't account for link in time on goki's part. And it was also generous with the dodge attack since not all dodge attacks can be input that early or are 500ms.

    If we assume goki's link in time to his heavy finisher is standard at 200ms that means from landing a light it will take goki's heavy 1100ms to land. We can take PK's dodge attack as an easy example of a not so great dodge attack. Her dodge attack is 533ms but earliest comes 300ms into her dodge. So 400ms+300ms+533ms. That equals1233ms before pk's dodge attack will land compared to Goki's 1100ms. So goki will beat her out. This isn't accounting for the fact that goki has HA 433ms into his uncharged heavy. So even if your dodge attack will land Goki will trade and it will be in his favor. The only time you're going to beat out goki trying to go for a trade is if he tries to go for a heavy after a neutral headbutt. However in that case goki will likely only throw his heavy after a headbutt if the person doesn't have a dodge attack. Because it would stuff dodge into GB attempts.


    "First, it is not unreactable for the average player. Fought a rep 76 overall and he had no trouble with it. Semi reactable is staright up BS. A move is unreactable or trash, with nothing in between.
    As I already explained his chain headbutt is not strong, as it can be option selected with most dogdes. It is not bad, as it works when the opponent is not expecting it. But using it as it was a good attack is not very good.
    "

    You experiencing someone being able to react to it isn't definitive proof that it's reactable. If that's proof enough for you I could say I fought a rep 300 person who couldn't react. Above average players can react to 500ms bashes with 300ms start up. Everyone below is reacting to the forward dodge and not the bash itself. Which leaves them vulnerable to other things. It's kind of like how at top level play those players are capable of focusing up and "reacting" to buffered 500ms bashes like conq's or Warlords. However that leaves them vulnerable to other things because they're specifically looking for the bash.
    Dodge selecting only works with trying to parry. And you're doing this on light parry timing. You cannot do that after hitstun. As an aside option selecting is more than simply having an action cover multiple options. Just because a dodge attack might be able to beat the attack itself and feint to GB doesn't mean you're option selecting with a dodge attack.

    "Don't make me laught. It is exacty in the same state of Lawbringer's Long Arm. Just as reminder, people make challenges with it and see it as a meme. Curiously I saw in
    Jondaliner (youtuber that usually memes about Long Arm) calling Hug the new Long Arm. There's your super viable option select move lol.
    For punishes it is good tho.
    "

    Jondaliner isn't a competitive player as far as i'm aware. So I don't care about their opinion. Also none of this actually counters what you're quoting. You're just disagreeing because you don't agree. I'm not saying that his hug move is great because it can option select. I'm saying it's a defensive tool he has access to that he previously didn't. Unless you can some how disprove the claim that it can option select what I said it could you've got nothing to argue with here.

    "Let's wait to see how he is going to be in the next months when players will be used to his new kit. Now people are already option selecting and reacting to almost everything. I don't doubt he will be close to what Shinobi is now."

    Pretty much every single competitive player i've seen talk about goki has stated he's a lot better now. I'm going to take their word over yours. Especially when they've got a track record of being consistently correct.

    "Won't talk about Glad cuz I don't play with him so don't know much. What I know is, your comment seems resonable, but I still smash Glads way easier now, and every Glad main I know disliked the changes so..."

    I've seen mains complain about changes to every hero wether or not the hero got better because mains have a bias towards what they like about the hero. It's fine if they miss the ability to imbalance with toe stab. However that doesn't change the fact that it has very little impact on his competitive viability. Glad was and still is strong in dominion. And the same can be said for duels. People just don't enjoy playing the way they would need to in order to see how strong he is. Same thing with conq. No one likes turtling and abusing all the OS's his kit has. But he's strong because of them.
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  5. #15
    MrBdur's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Tio_Croc Go to original post
    Do you know what a option select is? Cuz if you did you would understand how Goki and Glad actually were.
    I would be more than happy to duel you if you're on Xbox :P
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  6. #16
    Originally Posted by MrBdur Go to original post
    I would be more than happy to duel you if you're on Xbox :P
    I play on PS4
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  7. #17
    who I play doesn't have a bias on how I view other heros. My only bias is that I strictly concern myself/talk from the top % of players. That's where the game shines. That's where the game is actually fun to watch and discuss. All my information and understanding comes from comp.
    Yes it does. I beat a hero he is ok. I lose to him he needs a nerf. That's how it works. Game's not fun on high level in my opinion. But if you think so, enjoy your turtling lol, I am curious to know why do you think Goki is good since you play with "high level players comp" and they are the ones that mostly abuse cheats that destroy Goki.

    I was speaking from mid chain with headbutt on where you're quoting here Light hitstun reaction is 400ms. Goki's uncharged heavy finishers are 900ms with HA at the earliest of 433ms into the attack. If you do a dodge light after hitstun that's 400ms+ at least 100ms before you input a dodge attack of a dodge attack of 500ms. That means it will be 1000ms before your dodge attack will land. So goki should interrupt you. This doesn't account for link in time on goki's part. And it was also generous with the dodge attack since not all dodge attacks can be input that early or are 500ms.
    I did testings with my friend as kensei and he was able to dodge and caught me before the Hyper Armor with no problems. Even if there are dodges that get later than hyper armor, depensing on the direction and on the timing they can I fram the heavy. In conclusion, the headbutt pretty much only works when they are not expecting it.

    If we assume goki's link in time to his heavy finisher is standard at 200ms that means from landing a light it will take goki's heavy 1100ms to land. We can take PK's dodge attack as an easy example of a not so great dodge attack. Her dodge attack is 533ms but earliest comes 300ms into her dodge. So 400ms+300ms+533ms. That equals1233ms before pk's dodge attack will land compared to Goki's 1100ms. So goki will beat her out. This isn't accounting for the fact that goki has HA 433ms into his uncharged heavy. So even if your dodge attack will land Goki will trade and it will be in his favor. The only time you're going to beat out goki trying to go for a trade is if he tries to go for a heavy after a neutral headbutt. However in that case goki will likely only throw his heavy after a headbutt if the person doesn't have a dodge attack. Because it would stuff dodge into GB attempts.


    You experiencing someone being able to react to it isn't definitive proof that it's reactable. If that's proof enough for you I could say I fought a rep 300 person who couldn't react. Above average players can react to 500ms bashes with 300ms start up. Everyone below is reacting to the forward dodge and not the bash itself. Which leaves them vulnerable to other things. It's kind of like how at top level play those players are capable of focusing up and "reacting" to buffered 500ms bashes like conq's or Warlords. However that leaves them vulnerable to other things because they're specifically looking for the bash.
    Dodge selecting only works with trying to parry. And you're doing this on light parry timing. You cannot do that after hitstun. As an aside option selecting is more than simply having an action cover multiple options. Just because a dodge attack might be able to beat the attack itself and feint to GB doesn't mean you're option selecting with a dodge attack.
    Ok, so a rep 76 overall Kensei main can react to the headbutt, but the "high level comp" you play with can't? lmao

    Jondaliner isn't a competitive player as far as i'm aware. So I don't care about their opinion. Also none of this actually counters what you're quoting. You're just disagreeing because you don't agree. I'm not saying that his hug move is great because it can option select. I'm saying it's a defensive tool he has access to that he previously didn't. Unless you can some how disprove the claim that it can option select what I said it could you've got nothing to argue with here.
    My logic was simple. This move is in a similar state of Long Arm, it is reactable and highly punishable and only viable on ganks and punishes. Do you see "high level comps" saying Long Arm is the best move in the game? Yeah me neither.
    Just to be sure, do you seriously think in a tournament with prize in money people would be using Hug to option selec??


    "Let's wait to see how he is going to be in the next months when players will be used to his new kit. Now people are already option selecting and reacting to almost everything. I don't doubt he will be close to what Shinobi is now."

    Pretty much every single competitive player i've seen talk about goki has stated he's a lot better now. I'm going to take their word over yours. Especially when they've got a track record of being consistently correct.
    Let's see if the opinion of those "high comp players" actually mean anything. In the majority of "high level comp" vids I've seen, most of the damage of the Shugo came from parries cuz he was getting option selected left and right.

    I've seen mains complain about changes to every hero wether or not the hero got better because mains have a bias towards what they like about the hero. It's fine if they miss the ability to imbalance with toe stab. However that doesn't change the fact that it has very little impact on his competitive viability. Glad was and still is strong in dominion. And the same can be said for duels. People just don't enjoy playing the way they would need to in order to see how strong he is. Same thing with conq. No one likes turtling and abusing all the OS's his kit has. But he's strong because of them.[/QUOTE]
    Let's see his pick rate at "high level comp". I bet he'll be replaced by Cent or another decent hero.

    Play with Shugoki. My boy is very very bad. Don' have any real mix ups, damage output is basically 12 from parries of option selects and 10 from dodge headbutt. This is not enough. You prob play with Warden, Warmonger, BP so you won't care. But pls try to have empathy on us poor Gokis that suffered so much. THE NERF HAMMER HAS SWANG ONCE AGAIN. DISGRACE TO US THAT THE "HiGh LeVel ComP" ARE BLINDED TO THE UNFAIRNESS TOWARDS THE THICC BOIS
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  8. #18
    That rep 76 probably prediction dodge attacked. If you dodge on orange, it is definetely too late to safely punish. Also, as I linked, some of the best players think Shugoki is amazing. Sorry, but I take Barak's word over yours any time if we are talking about For Honor.

    Who do I play is irrevelant. I never played orochi, he needs a buff, I play bp, and he needs some nerfs. But nice try to invalidate something you can not argue with.
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  9. #19
    Originally Posted by Tio_Croc Go to original post
    ....annoying to quote everything
    I'll assume your first rebuttal was a troll attempt because otherwise you are just simply a troll and I'm wasting my time.

    It seems you are basing your entire conclusion about Goki over one fight with this rep 76 Kensei. So like they said I'll take the more knowledgeable players words over yours until I form my own conclusion.

    Other than that all your arguments are either unsupported opinions, pure denial, or simply fallacious like arguing the hero that Raime (or anyone else for that matter) prefers to play with has ANY bearing on his understanding of this game's mechanics or the soundness of his arguments.

    Basically smarten up thicc boi.
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  10. #20
    Don't get me wrong, but I do have some empathy with Mains Shugoki.

    In the past you didn't need to know how to play a lot, you just clicked on Light Attack whenever a Becon appeared, and the anti-game worked.
    Now having to learn these things from Parry, and from Dodge... This is very complicated. And learning this in so few days costs... LMAO
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