About the reworks | Forums

[MrBdur]

who I play doesn't have a bias on how I view other heros. My only bias is that I strictly concern myself/talk from the top % of players. That's where the game shines. That's where the game is actually fun to watch and discuss. All my information and understanding comes from comp.
Yes it does. I beat a hero he is ok. I lose to him he needs a nerf. That's how it works. Game's not fun on high level in my opinion. But if you think so, enjoy your turtling lol, I am curious to know why do you think Goki is good since you play with "high level players comp" and they are the ones that mostly abuse cheats that destroy Goki.

I was speaking from mid chain with headbutt on where you're quoting here Light hitstun reaction is 400ms. Goki's uncharged heavy finishers are 900ms with HA at the earliest of 433ms into the attack. If you do a dodge light after hitstun that's 400ms+ at least 100ms before you input a dodge attack of a dodge attack of 500ms. That means it will be 1000ms before your dodge attack will land. So goki should interrupt you. This doesn't account for link in time on goki's part. And it was also generous with the dodge attack since not all dodge attacks can be input that early or are 500ms.
I did testings with my friend as kensei and he was able to dodge and caught me before the Hyper Armor with no problems. Even if there are dodges that get later than hyper armor, depensing on the direction and on the timing they can I fram the heavy. In conclusion, the headbutt pretty much only works when they are not expecting it.

If we assume goki's link in time to his heavy finisher is standard at 200ms that means from landing a light it will take goki's heavy 1100ms to land. We can take PK's dodge attack as an easy example of a not so great dodge attack. Her dodge attack is 533ms but earliest comes 300ms into her dodge. So 400ms+300ms+533ms. That equals1233ms before pk's dodge attack will land compared to Goki's 1100ms. So goki will beat her out. This isn't accounting for the fact that goki has HA 433ms into his uncharged heavy. So even if your dodge attack will land Goki will trade and it will be in his favor. The only time you're going to beat out goki trying to go for a trade is if he tries to go for a heavy after a neutral headbutt. However in that case goki will likely only throw his heavy after a headbutt if the person doesn't have a dodge attack. Because it would stuff dodge into GB attempts.


You experiencing someone being able to react to it isn't definitive proof that it's reactable. If that's proof enough for you I could say I fought a rep 300 person who couldn't react. Above average players can react to 500ms bashes with 300ms start up. Everyone below is reacting to the forward dodge and not the bash itself. Which leaves them vulnerable to other things. It's kind of like how at top level play those players are capable of focusing up and "reacting" to buffered 500ms bashes like conq's or Warlords. However that leaves them vulnerable to other things because they're specifically looking for the bash.
Dodge selecting only works with trying to parry. And you're doing this on light parry timing. You cannot do that after hitstun. As an aside option selecting is more than simply having an action cover multiple options. Just because a dodge attack might be able to beat the attack itself and feint to GB doesn't mean you're option selecting with a dodge attack.
Ok, so a rep 76 overall Kensei main can react to the headbutt, but the "high level comp" you play with can't? lmao

Jondaliner isn't a competitive player as far as i'm aware. So I don't care about their opinion. Also none of this actually counters what you're quoting. You're just disagreeing because you don't agree. I'm not saying that his hug move is great because it can option select. I'm saying it's a defensive tool he has access to that he previously didn't. Unless you can some how disprove the claim that it can option select what I said it could you've got nothing to argue with here.
My logic was simple. This move is in a similar state of Long Arm, it is reactable and highly punishable and only viable on ganks and punishes. Do you see "high level comps" saying Long Arm is the best move in the game? Yeah me neither.
Just to be sure, do you seriously think in a tournament with prize in money people would be using Hug to option selec??

"Let's wait to see how he is going to be in the next months when players will be used to his new kit. Now people are already option selecting and reacting to almost everything. I don't doubt he will be close to what Shinobi is now."

Pretty much every single competitive player i've seen talk about goki has stated he's a lot better now. I'm going to take their word over yours. Especially when they've got a track record of being consistently correct.
Let's see if the opinion of those "high comp players" actually mean anything. In the majority of "high level comp" vids I've seen, most of the damage of the Shugo came from parries cuz he was getting option selected left and right.

I've seen mains complain about changes to every hero wether or not the hero got better because mains have a bias towards what they like about the hero. It's fine if they miss the ability to imbalance with toe stab. However that doesn't change the fact that it has very little impact on his competitive viability. Glad was and still is strong in dominion. And the same can be said for duels. People just don't enjoy playing the way they would need to in order to see how strong he is. Same thing with conq. No one likes turtling and abusing all the OS's his kit has. But he's strong because of them.

Let's see his pick rate at "high level comp". I bet he'll be replaced by Cent or another decent hero.

Play with Shugoki. My boy is very very bad. Don' have any real mix ups, damage output is basically 12 from parries of option selects and 10 from dodge headbutt. This is not enough. You prob play with Warden, Warmonger, BP so you won't care. But pls try to have empathy on us poor Gokis that suffered so much. THE NERF HAMMER HAS SWANG ONCE AGAIN. DISGRACE TO US THAT THE "HiGh LeVel ComP" ARE BLINDED TO THE UNFAIRNESS TOWARDS THE THICC BOIS [/QUOTE]

Ohhhhhhh you're a salty shugoki main who relied on "LiGhT oN rEd".

I understand your complaints better now.

If you actually take the time to learn how to play, you would understand just how strong he is still.

The headbutt is absolutely reactable if all you do is throw raw headbutts. I can react to neutral headbutts all day. Raime said "semi unreactable", not "unreactable".

The headbutt is good as a mixup or like LB's shove. Dodge an attack and use it for a guaranteed hit. They can't dodge it during a recovery animation.

If you think it sucks because it's reactable from neutral, then you need A LOT of practice.

I love Shugo. Got 13 reps on him.

I avoided playing him before because the wins were just sooooooooo easy. (Duels). Otherwise, he'd easily be over rep 20 by now

He is so much fun to play as now. I can still absolutely destroy players with him and nobody cries about it anymore. Yayyyyy. The amount of salt I used to get for picking him was insane.

You thinking him and glad are bad now sort of just tells most of us how inexperienced you are.

Also, can you clarify the beginning "if I beat a hero, he is ok. If I lose to a hero, he needs nerfs".

Are you actually suggesting that if YOU personally beat one hero, it proves they are in a good spot but if YOU lose to one, they need nerfs?

[Tio_Croc]

Don't get me wrong, but I do have some empathy with Mains Shugoki.

In the past you didn't need to know how to play a lot, you just clicked on Light Attack whenever a Becon appeared, and the anti-game worked.
Now having to learn these things from Parry, and from Dodge... This is very complicated. And learning this in so few days costs... LMAO

I stopped playing Shugoki after the CCU cuz out of nothing he was from trash to OP in less than a week. I was hyped cuz these changed were supposed to make him healthy and good. They didn't.

[Tio_Croc]

Ohhhhhhh you're a salty shugoki main who relied on "LiGhT oN rEd".
I did not light on red, did not used his zone, did not option selected. I relied only on my heavies and mind games.

I understand your complaints better now.

If you actually take the time to learn how to play, you would understand just how strong he is still.

The headbutt is absolutely reactable if all you do is throw raw headbutts. I can react to neutral headbutts all day. Raime said "semi unreactable", not "unreactable".

The headbutt is good as a mixup or like LB's shove. Dodge an attack and use it for a guaranteed hit. They can't dodge it during a recovery animation.
Except that the shove cannot be punished lol

If you think it sucks because it's reactable from neutral, then you need A LOT of practice.
Having flashbacks of Cent and how every"high game comp" though he was OP. "OmG uNbLoCkAbLe FLiCkEr InSaNe" lmao. Then out of nothing he was trash. Guess we'll see that kind of freak show again.

I love Shugo. Got 13 reps on him.
You lie

I avoided playing him before because the wins were just sooooooooo easy. (Duels). Otherwise, he'd easily be over rep 20 by now
Against actual good players that know how to option select it is nearly impossible to win as shugo. it is possible to make his mind games more unfavorable to him with option selects. Against casual players he was indeed a monster. I stopped playing with him and waited almost a freaking year to receive this poor rework. Underwhelming.

He is so much fun to play as now. I can still absolutely destroy players with him and nobody cries about it anymore. Yayyyyy. The amount of salt I used to get for picking him was insane.

You thinking him and glad are bad now sort of just tells most of us how inexperienced you are.

Also, can you clarify the beginning "if I beat a hero, he is ok. If I lose to a hero, he needs nerfs".

Are you actually suggesting that if YOU personally beat one hero, it proves they are in a good spot but if YOU lose to one, they need nerfs?[/QUOTE]
This is the genral mindset of the community. I wrote an entire thread explaning why Glad and Goki need buffs cuz I could easily beat them during my testings. And Glad was always ez for me.

Any way, I stopped taking this seriously when you said hug can be used to option select. During this entire thread I saw no "high player comp" just dudes citing them with no source. I will rather use my experience with the hero instead of your argument based on phantom authorities. You can continue to bash spam with you your S tier heroes. Devs prob main those so they will never be touched. Cheers.

[PicoAncus]

I stopped playing Shugoki after the CCU cuz out of nothing he was from trash to OP in less than a week. I was hyped cuz these changed were supposed to make him healthy and good. They didn't.

It was just a stupid joke. Dont get me wrong.
I play with Jorm, so...I have no Moral to talk about other heroes flaws...

[Tio_Croc]

My second main is Nuxia. I also kinda understand about flawed heroes.
Jorm is ok now. Not exactly someone that I like to play against, but ok. At least not a noob destroyer.
Don't get me wrong. I do agree shugoki needed a rework, taking away his HA light, maybe adding new things. But now he is such garbage.

[PicoAncus]

My second main is Nuxia. I also kinda understand about flawed heroes.
Jorm is ok now. Not exactly someone that I like to play against, but ok. At least not a noob destroyer.
Don't get me wrong. I do agree shugoki needed a rework, taking away his HA light, maybe adding new things. But now he is such garbage.

I always said that of all the Reworks, Shugoki's was the one that made me the most skeptical.

It has a very specific core, which logically doesn't allow fast lights (although the Highlander is the same and has to suppress other flaws), and then it doesn't have more sequences besides Light-Heavy or Heavy-Heavy... And that limits very character.

I don't think the solution is to improve Demons Embrace...

Jorm becomes simple. Not being the best, from the moment I like the character, and decide to play with him, I have to git gut...Period. LOOOOL

[Knight_Raime]

@Tio_Croc

"Yes it does. I beat a hero he is ok. I lose to him he needs a nerf. That's how it works. Game's not fun on high level in my opinion. But if you think so, enjoy your turtling lol, I am curious to know why do you think Goki is good since you play with "high level players comp" and they are the ones that mostly abuse cheats that destroy Goki."

Boy i'm sure glad you're here to tell me how my mind works. Cool, wether it's fun or not isn't relevant to what we're talking about nor is it a counter point to my statement. And it's funny that you complain about turtling when 1) you're more than likely going to see that in duels over 4's and 2) turtling isn't the main way to play in duels for a significant portion of the cast at this point. I've already explained more than once the good things about Shugoki so i'm just going to assume by this statement and others in your reply that you lack basic reading comprehension.

"I did testings with my friend as kensei and he was able to dodge and caught me before the Hyper Armor with no problems. Even if there are dodges that get later than hyper armor, depensing on the direction and on the timing they can I fram the heavy. In conclusion, the headbutt pretty much only works when they are not expecting it."

Kensei's dodge attack is 600ms. Light hit reaction is 400ms. That's 1000ms before the attack would land. Goki's HA begins at 433ms of his uncharged heavy. Goki's time for his attack to land is 1100ms. So Goki will have armor when Kensei's attack lands and the trade is still in his favor. You can avoid having the attack I framed by changing the attack direction. You could absolutely still I frame it anyway if you delay your dodge attack input on Kensei. However at that point you're making a read between the headbutt and uncharged heavy. Not buffering a dodge attack after being hit by a light. So your "proof" doesn't work. Never mind that you're attempting to use one hero to state how the interaction would work for all heros.

"Ok, so a rep 76 overall Kensei main can react to the headbutt, but the "high level comp" you play with can't? lmao"

That's...really not even close to what I said in what you quoted.

"My logic was simple. This move is in a similar state of Long Arm, it is reactable and highly punishable and only viable on ganks and punishes. Do you see "high level comps" saying Long Arm is the best move in the game? Yeah me neither.
Just to be sure, do you seriously think in a tournament with prize in money people would be using Hug to option selec??"

Them both being gank tools doesn't mean they're even close to playing out the same. Zones are reactable and highly punishable. Are you saying they're not valid option select tools now? I'll restate one final time. Hug CAN option select GB selects and punish parry fishing because it has 100ms of GB vulnerability. That 100ms of GB vulnerability is exactly why zones can option select. Did I ever state hug was a good move? NO. Did I ever state that because it can option select it's a good move? NO. I was specifically listing tools Goki has available to him that can be beneficial. Because the whole discussion here is about Goki's viability and capability in duels. Having option selects of any kind even if they're not particularly strong is massively better than not having one. Just as having access to a bash from neutral or dodge even if it's not a good bash is better than not having one at all. You're not going to hug to OS GB selects all the time. Just as you're not always going to zone option select a mix up or bash select a mix up. It's an option. And options are good to have.


"Let's see if the opinion of those "high comp players" actually mean anything. In the majority of "high level comp" vids I've seen, most of the damage of the Shugo came from parries cuz he was getting option selected left and right."

If a person actually cares about the state of the game and wants to understand it better to get better at it comp player opinions will mean something. You've already admitted to only liking duels and finding comp play boring. So nothing they say is going to matter to you regardless.

"Let's see his pick rate at "high level comp". I bet he'll be replaced by Cent or another decent hero.

I wouldn't even begin to try and make statements about gameplay you don't regularly watch to actually understand. Just makes you look like a clown.

Cent wouldn't be picked over goki in a team comp because cent is picked as a ganker. The only two other heros in the roster that fill a similar role is gladiator and Shaman. Goki is a team fighter in dominion. Which means he'd be contesting with Warlord, zhanhu, Kensei, Nobushi mainly and potentially warmonger and gryphon. The pick is determined by what feats are available and what works well with your comp. Not strictly based on a hero's kit's capabilities. I could write out the strengths of goki in 4's especially now post rework but that would make this reply even longer. And it like my entire time spent in this thread would be a waste since you don't care for the mode at all.

"Play with Shugoki. My boy is very very bad. Don' have any real mix ups, damage output is basically 12 from parries of option selects and 10 from dodge headbutt. This is not enough. You prob play with Warden, Warmonger, BP so you won't care. "

I played him for a solid hour last night in duels and won every single match. Not like that actually matters because I don't play in high mmr brackets. So I basically bully anyone who doesn't know the game as well as I do or has worse reactions than I do. Far as who I play goes that would be: Warden, Cent, BP, PK, Warmonger, raider, zerker, Orochi, Aramusha, hitokiri, shugoki, Nobushi, Tiandi, shaolin, zhanhu. I've played the one's i've not listed as well but not frequently enough to say i'm okay with them. Again, not like it matters. You've yet to actually give a proper counter argument to any of the facts i've listed. Since you are clearly incapable of doing so let alone actually reading what i've typed i'm just not going to reply to you further.

[Tio_Croc]

Oh boy. More one year maining a trash hero. Make your bets on when it's going to be his next rework. It's going to be fun.
It was a pleasure debating with you guys cheers.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

Oh boy. More one year maining a trash hero. Make your bets on when it's going to be his next rework. It's going to be fun.
It was a pleasure debating with you guys cheers.

Do you feel like you did any debating?

[MrBdur]

Ohhhhhhh you're a salty shugoki main who relied on "LiGhT oN rEd".
I did not light on red, did not used his zone, did not option selected. I relied only on my heavies and mind games.

I understand your complaints better now.

If you actually take the time to learn how to play, you would understand just how strong he is still.

The headbutt is absolutely reactable if all you do is throw raw headbutts. I can react to neutral headbutts all day. Raime said "semi unreactable", not "unreactable".

The headbutt is good as a mixup or like LB's shove. Dodge an attack and use it for a guaranteed hit. They can't dodge it during a recovery animation.
Except that the shove cannot be punished lol

If you think it sucks because it's reactable from neutral, then you need A LOT of practice.
Having flashbacks of Cent and how every"high game comp" though he was OP. "OmG uNbLoCkAbLe FLiCkEr InSaNe" lmao. Then out of nothing he was trash. Guess we'll see that kind of freak show again.

I love Shugo. Got 13 reps on him.
You lie

I avoided playing him before because the wins were just sooooooooo easy. (Duels). Otherwise, he'd easily be over rep 20 by now
Against actual good players that know how to option select it is nearly impossible to win as shugo. it is possible to make his mind games more unfavorable to him with option selects. Against casual players he was indeed a monster. I stopped playing with him and waited almost a freaking year to receive this poor rework. Underwhelming.

He is so much fun to play as now. I can still absolutely destroy players with him and nobody cries about it anymore. Yayyyyy. The amount of salt I used to get for picking him was insane.

You thinking him and glad are bad now sort of just tells most of us how inexperienced you are.

Also, can you clarify the beginning "if I beat a hero, he is ok. If I lose to a hero, he needs nerfs".

Are you actually suggesting that if YOU personally beat one hero, it proves they are in a good spot but if YOU lose to one, they need nerfs?

This is the genral mindset of the community. I wrote an entire thread explaning why Glad and Goki need buffs cuz I could easily beat them during my testings. And Glad was always ez for me.

Any way, I stopped taking this seriously when you said hug can be used to option select. During this entire thread I saw no "high player comp" just dudes citing them with no source. I will rather use my experience with the hero instead of your argument based on phantom authorities. You can continue to bash spam with you your S tier heroes. Devs prob main those so they will never be touched. Cheers.[/QUOTE]

I never said shugo hug was an option select? You ok there bud?

Even if you had any credibility (which at this point I don't think anyone here will take you seriously) you would have lost it right there when you directed that comment to the wrong user. Lol

Don't know why the comp scene is being brought up against me. I mentioned nothing about it. That was mostly Knight Raime.

Anyways, I'm going to post a picture of my heroes and their reps.

You can see for yourself that I have 13 reps on Shugo and at the same time, you will see how few reps I put into bash spammers as a whole.

I have reps on some as I play many heroes but I don't just rep up meta heroes.

My conq is only rep 4. My BP is rep 8. My Gryph is rep 6 or 7.

My glad and shugo are both higher than any 3 of the metas I mentioned.

Glad is 11. Shugo is 13.