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  1. #11
    Noxious81's Avatar Senior Member
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    I still think that both talents are good just the way they are. Because of course Kinetic Momentum does have downsides – for example that you have to build up your stacks. And the talent can only work at its best efficiency when used with deployable skills. And it only affects Skill Damage and not Weapon Damage.

    As Glass Canon already is a very strong DPS talent, it does not need a buff. And Kinetic Momentum really isn't thaaaat strong so it would be in dire need of such a drastic nerf. Especially when compared to other talents, e. g. Overwatch. Which grants 12% more Weapon and Skill Damage without any downside except for having to stay in cover for more than 10 seconds. And additionally the bonus is granted for the whole team.

    Again: those talents are at a great spot. I'm totally down for nerfing those pesky AFK-skill-builds, but there are plenty of other items that would be more in need of a nerf (Waveform, Capacitor, Memento, Empress Brand Set, Drone and Turret Uptime/Damage etc.).
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  2. #12
    My friend has Wyvern glass cannon and Wyvern kinetic.

    I have perfect glass cannon but that's because I found one with skill haste and skill damage.
    First I thought 'trash rolls' but then I kept it just in case.
    And rolled skill tier on it.
    I use that character mainly that's why I said 30% on glass cannon.

    I have:
    1 China
    2 grupo
    1 Wyvern
    1 providence
    1 Waveform

    I had hana u first but i didn't need skill haste.
    And didn't want empress/skill health at all.
    So I changed stuff around for the perfect glass cannon.

    And yes the identical vests is what I need to test it myself.
    On my other character (with normal GC)
    But I always thought why 15% if I can have 25-30%?
    So I deleted or shared all the kinetics lol
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  3. #13
    Originally Posted by Noxious81 Go to original post
    I still think that both talents are good just the way they are. Because of course Kinetic Momentum does have downsides – for example that you have to build up your stacks. And the talent can only work at its best efficiency when used with deployable skills. And it only affects Skill Damage and not Weapon Damage.

    As Glass Canon already is a very strong DPS talent, it does not need a buff. And Kinetic Momentum really isn't thaaaat strong so it would be in dire need of such a drastic nerf. Especially when compared to other talents, e. g. Overwatch. Which grants 12% more Weapon and Skill Damage without any downside except for having to stay in cover for more than 10 seconds. And additionally the bonus is granted for the whole team.

    Again: those talents are at a great spot. I'm totally down for nerfing those pesky AFK-skill-builds, but there are plenty of other items that would be more in need of a nerf (Waveform, Capacitor, Memento, Empress Brand Set, Drone and Turret Uptime/Damage etc.).
    I get that but I just think all damage (on glass cannon) is just Skill and Weapon damage.
    Not as it says all damage.

    Didn't say it hasn't a downside at all but compare:
    Getting 2% skillpower per second till 30%.
    And/or 1% after cooldown till 15%.
    Or
    50-60% incoming damage the whole time.
    Not really a downside for the first.


    Glass cannon should give the most benefit % out of all talents considering you get 50% incoming damage.

    As for the other talents that you want nerfed.
    I rather have new stuff that makes:
    Tank builds good like D3fnc in div1.
    Perhaps a different version of the capacitor that ups power with armor cores.
    Or a capacitor that ups armor per red core.
    That way we see other builds then just Skill builds.
    Especially in legendary missions.
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  4. #14
    Noxious81's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by DutchLMB4ever Go to original post
    (...) Not really a downside for the first.
    In comparison to Glass Canon the major downside of Kinetic Momentum is that you miss out on 25% Weapon Damage.
    And while Glass Canon can offer an overall damage bonus of 25% (including both Skill and Weapon Damage), this advantage comes with the disadvantage of increased incoming damage.
    Which sounds fair to me.
    Because damage-wise Glass Canon is of course the better talent, but it makes you a... well... a glass canon.


    Originally Posted by DutchLMB4ever Go to original post
    (...)As for the other talents that you want nerfed.
    I rather have new stuff that makes:
    Tank builds good like D3fnc in div1.
    Perhaps a different version of the capacitor that ups power with armor cores.
    Or a capacitor that ups armor per red core.
    That way we see other builds then just Skill builds.
    Especially in legendary missions.
    While I do think that there are a lot of viable tank and semi-tank builds in TD2, I would not want to see other Capacitor versions or other stuff buffed to the power level of items which are currently overpowered.
    That's why I was suggesting toning down certain items, as they are – as the word "overpowered" more than implies – too powerful for the current game. They are not only not in line with other items but they are most importantly not in line with the difficulty the game has to offer. The list is long here: drones and turrets dish out way too much damage / the enemies aggro skills like stupid because the AI somehow can't handle skills and especially drones / you don't even need to play a skill build anymore to have high Skill Damage as the Capacitor brings in 60% – that's as much Skill Damage as you could have on a whole build's minor attributes added together, if of course all six items would have a godrolled Skill Damage attribute / a dedicated Technician skill build with the Capacitor (at Skill Tier 6, with 1 red core attribute) has a Weapon Damage bonus of 52.5% – while a dedicated DPS build can have up to 90% if all core attributes are godrolled... why the hell should a non-optimized skill build have a damage bonus worth approx. 60% of a fully optimized dedicated DPS build?!?!

    But that's OT, so let's rather stick to talking about GC and KM.
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  5. #15
    Originally Posted by Noxious81 Go to original post
    In comparison to Glass Canon the major downside of Kinetic Momentum is that you miss out on 25% Weapon damage

    why the hell should a non-optimized skill build have a damage bonus worth approx. 60% of a fully optimized dedicated DPS build?!?!

    But that's OT, so let's rather stick to talking about GC and KM.
    Alrighty then if you compare it like that, every other talent is trash compared to GC.
    Obliterate trash, only weapon damage.
    Vigilance trash, only weapon damage.
    Tech support trash, only skill damage.
    Shock and awe trash, only skill damage.
    Combined arms trash, only skill damage.
    Overwatch trash, not the same amount.
    Etc
    Compare the downsides of each talent.
    You have to wait 15sec to build up more skill power it's not immediately.
    Lose 15% that you gained if a skill goes to cooldown.
    Or
    50% incoming damage (literally all damage)
    Explosive and Melee as well
    Immediately and the whole time.

    If it was like this:
    Every second you get a stack up to 15 stacks.
    Per active skill or not on cooldown.
    Each stack gives 1% skill (and weapon damage).
    But if a skill goes on cooldown you lose 30% skill (and weapon damage) Per skill.
    So you lose the 15% gained and another 15% on top of that.
    Then it would be a real downside.
    And if it was like that, then we could talk about the major downside for KM is, it has no weapon damage.
    -------------------------
    For the dps with skill bit
    Maybe they should up the stacks per skill tier on the Capacitor? (10% per tier)
    So that with a red only build you can only stack 10% instead of 60%.
    -------------------------
    You started talking about nerfing capacitor,waveform I only responded to it.
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  6. #16
    Noxious81's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by DutchLMB4ever Go to original post
    Alrighty then if you compare it like that, every other talent is trash compared to GC.
    Not at all! GC is great as it offers more damage variants – and you don't need to build it up and it does not get deactivated for some reasons (e. g. leaving cover or getting hit). BUT taking 50% more damage from all sources is a huge disadvantage. So a huge advantage comes with a huge disadvantage. Other talents may have bonuses that may seem a bit weaker, but they also do not make you 50% more squishy. For example:

    "Obliterate trash, only weapon damage." – This is in fact one of my favorite DPS-talents, as on a high-crit-build you can reach the complete 25% bonus pretty fast. And it does not make you as squishy as GC. Especially as you usually don't need the effect GC has on other damage variants apart from pure weapon damage on a DPS-build. A very good talent imho.

    Vigilance trash, only weapon damage. – Well, Vigilance is a backpack talent, so you can't really compare it to GC. But it is a very strong talent, as a 25% bonus on weapon damage is huge for a backpack. But it can be deactivated when being hit, so one should consider, whether this fits one's personal playstyle. Because often you get hit by enemies when they rush or flank you – and that's when you would need that extra damage the most. Or when playing solo you usually get all the aggro, so Vigilance might be on cooldown pretty often. On the other hand when playing a shield-build, Vigilance can be a very good choice.

    Tech support trash, only skill damage. / Shock and awe trash, only skill damage. / Combined arms trash, only skill damage. – Again, those are all backpack talents. So they should rather be evaluated in combination with GC, not as an opposing option. But anyway – both Tech Support and Combined Arms are pretty good talents for increasing Skill Damage, again without having to deal with 50% more incoming damage. Which indeed is an advantage if nonetheless compared to the "performance" or "value" of GC. So I'd basically suggest choosing the talent which synergizes better with your build and skills. For example, if you are using a skill build which anyway focuses on actively and constantly shooting at enemies (e. g. when using In Sync and maybe GC), CA seems to be a very good choice. If you are not engaging the enemy with your weaponry that often, TS could be a better choice (for example when playing with cluster seekers, the mortar turret, and Skilled as you chest's talent). Pretty much the same is true for SaA, only that your build should of course incorporate applying status effects...

    Overwatch trash, not the same amount. – Overwatch indeed "only" offers a 12% bonus for both Weapon and Skill Damage. But again: you trade in a good chunk of damage output for a much higher survivability. Choices have to made, that's usually how builds are created. Additionally, Overwatch also grants that bonus to your teammates. So technically in a team of four we are talking about a 48% damage bonus.


    Originally Posted by DutchLMB4ever Go to original post
    (...) You started talking about nerfing capacitor,waveform I only responded to it.
    Yeah, that's alright. I was rather trying to retrain myself.
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  7. #17
    Originally Posted by Noxious81 Go to original post
    Not at all! GC is great as it offers more damage variants – and you don't need to build it up and it does not get deactivated for some reasons (e. g. leaving cover or getting hit). BUT taking 50% more damage from all sources is a huge disadvantage. So a huge advantage comes with a huge disadvantage. Other talents may have bonuses that may seem a bit weaker, but they also do not make you 50% more squishy. For example:

    "Obliterate trash, only weapon damage." – This is in fact one of my favorite DPS-talents, as on a high-crit-build you can reach the complete 25% bonus pretty fast. And it does not make you as squishy as GC. Especially as you usually don't need the effect GC has on other damage variants apart from pure weapon damage on a DPS-build. A very good talent imho.

    Vigilance trash, only weapon damage. – Well, Vigilance is a backpack talent, so you can't really compare it to GC. But it is a very strong talent, as a 25% bonus on weapon damage is huge for a backpack. But it can be deactivated when being hit, so one should consider, whether this fits one's personal playstyle. Because often you get hit by enemies when they rush or flank you – and that's when you would need that extra damage the most. Or when playing solo you usually get all the aggro, so Vigilance might be on cooldown pretty often. On the other hand when playing a shield-build, Vigilance can be a very good choice.

    Tech support trash, only skill damage. / Shock and awe trash, only skill damage. / Combined arms trash, only skill damage. – Again, those are all backpack talents. So they should rather be evaluated in combination with GC, not as an opposing option. But anyway – both Tech Support and Combined Arms are pretty good talents for increasing Skill Damage, again without having to deal with 50% more incoming damage. Which indeed is an advantage if nonetheless compared to the "performance" or "value" of GC. So I'd basically suggest choosing the talent which synergizes better with your build and skills. For example, if you are using a skill build which anyway focuses on actively and constantly shooting at enemies (e. g. when using In Sync and maybe GC), CA seems to be a very good choice. If you are not engaging the enemy with your weaponry that often, TS could be a better choice (for example when playing with cluster seekers, the mortar turret, and Skilled as you chest's talent). Pretty much the same is true for SaA, only that your build should of course incorporate applying status effects...

    Overwatch trash, not the same amount. – Overwatch indeed "only" offers a 12% bonus for both Weapon and Skill Damage. But again: you trade in a good chunk of damage output for a much higher survivability. Choices have to made, that's usually how builds are created. Additionally, Overwatch also grants that bonus to your teammates. So technically in a team of four we are talking about a 48% damage bonus.




    Yeah, that's alright. I was rather trying to retrain myself.
    I know they aren't trash, I only said that because you said:
    The major disadvantage is, KM doesnt give weapon damage like GC.
    And before that I said KM doesn't really have a downside compared to GC.
    Nevermind

    Also Obliterate is the KM for weapon damage.
    Theres not really a downside on this talent either.
    (Or are you gonna say no skill damage??)
    That's why it has no skill damage like GC.
    A real downside would be:
    missed shots resets stacks.
    Every Missed shot after that decreases 2% damage per bullet for 5sec.
    In that case I would say give Obliterate weapon + skill damage.

    Backpack or chest talents doesn't matter. (*)
    It's about the downsides of the talents. (*)
    Again YOU said the major downside of KM is, it has no weapon damage like GC.
    Then I used that on some other talents and called them trash compared to GC.
    Didn't mean it, just compared it the way you did with KM.
    Then you wrote whole paragraphs on the stuff that I didn't even meant.

    But it doesn't matter you are gonna twist my words
    And talk about (*) the other talents and how I didn't mention their downsides or something.
    It's alright tho
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  8. #18
    Marriorqq's Avatar Member
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    Originally Posted by DutchLMB4ever Go to original post
    A buddy of mine is using a bomber turret build lately.
    or
    Buff Glass cannon with another 15%



    The mortar I configured this time contains glass cannons; it only takes about 6.5 seconds to clear 6 elite enemies in hero mode (single shot)

    If the buff 15% becomes a single shot 1 and it can cause aoe 15M or more damage, I think it needs to be considered.
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  9. #19
    I made a build to test this with. The build:
    4 Empress
    (I know the 4th doesn't give anything but I just changed my waveform to another empress)
    1 Wyvern
    1 China bag perfect shock&awe

    The only thing I changed was the chest talent.
    So in any other case its the same build.

    The numbers are yellow/crit hits.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    Glass cannon:
    All damage you deal is amplified by 25%.
    All damage you take is amplified by 50%

    First mortar: 4,402,721 (25% all damage)
    2nd mortar: 5,283,266 (+ shock&awe)
    ----------------------‐-----------------------------------
    Kinetic Momentum:
    Stacks increase your total skill damage by 1%.
    Up to 15 stacks per skill.

    First mortar: 4,578,831 (30% skill damage)
    2nd mortar: 5,283,266 (+ shock&awe)
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    Shot 1
    GC : 4,402,721
    KM: 4,578,831
    5% skill damage is worth more then 25% explosion damage?
    Or explosion damage isn't in ALL damage?

    Shot 2
    GC : 5,283,266
    KM: 5,283,266

    Is this the cap??
    Or is 5% skill damage equal to 25% explosion damage all of a sudden?
    If so why is the first shot higher on KM?

    (I use a character without a leveled watch)
    So it could be that another 10% is useless?
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  10. #20
    As1r0nimo's Avatar Senior Member
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    One thing OP didn't mention. Glass cannon boost your damage all the time, while kinetic momentum - only if your skills are not on cd. Basically, for full potential, you HAVE to use turret and drone. No seekers, no sticky, no chem launcher, etc.
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