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  1. #21
    Originally Posted by CategoryTheory Go to original post
    You have the wrong end of the stick here. When using Spotter, pulsing the target is not the end goal. The goal is to hit a pulsed target with a bullet. That cannot be done without LOS (at least, not for any weapon that can mount the Linked Laser Pointer), so if you can achieve the aim of shooting and hitting the target, you automatically have the LOS you need for the Linked Laser Pointer to work.

    I am not sure what use you find for pulsed targets you're not shooting that could not be achieved just as well without Spotter, but regardless, that's not the topic I intended for this thread.
    Because a failure to obtain a LoS requires repositioning which in turm may increase exposure to threats whereas a scanner pulse with its greater range and no requirement for LoS allows the player to move into and out of fire positions in a more informed manner. As to the benefits of a pulsed target that has no LoS, you still gain significant tactical information regarding their disposition. In that regard the scanner is far superior to the LL even though both will proc Spotter for the multiplicative damage. Scanner also allows skills to benefit from a pulsed target where the agent has failed to obtain LoS as opposed to the build I was running wherein if I were to equip a turret I would still require LoS for the turret to gain the benefit of Spotter. Essentially the two items have different situational uses that make them better or worse under certain conditions.

    Ultimately if you wish to understand the pros and cons of one over the other then run for a day in an Heroic open world with one and then for a day with the other and analyse that experience and any data you draw from it. That will tell you which one you, personally, are more successful at using.
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  2. #22
    CategoryTheory's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by RichardOshea Go to original post
    Because a failure to obtain a LoS requires repositioning which in turm may increase exposure to threats whereas a scanner pulse with its greater range and no requirement for LoS allows the player to move into and out of fire positions in a more informed manner.
    Or just move into and out of fire positions in a more informed manner from the start, and simply don't worry about pulsing. This is the one of the two great features of the LLP: it automatically pulses anything you're aiming at, so whatever you're about it hit (assuming it's within 50 m) is pulsed before you hit it. (The other great feature, of course, is that it doesn't use a skill slot.)

    There's absolutely no advantage for Spotter to pulsing something out of LOS before moving into LOS.

    As for the rest, I'm sorry I didn't make it clear enough in the first post that I am discussing Spotter here, not the other uses of pulsing enemies. It should be pretty clear from the design of the LLP that it has no purpose other than proc'ing Spotter, since it gives you virtually nothing you wouldn't otherwise have without it. (Enemies are marked on moving the reticle over them even without an LLP, so the LLP provides virtually no informational advantage.)
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  3. #23
    Originally Posted by CategoryTheory Go to original post
    Or just move into and out of fire positions in a more informed manner from the start, and simply don't worry about pulsing. This is the one of the two great features of the LLP: it automatically pulses anything you're aiming at, so whatever you're about it hit (assuming it's within 50 m) is pulsed before you hit it. (The other great feature, of course, is that it doesn't use a skill slot.)

    There's absolutely no advantage for Spotter to pulsing something out of LOS before moving into LOS.

    As for the rest, I'm sorry I didn't make it clear enough in the first post that I am discussing Spotter here, not the other uses of pulsing enemies. It should be pretty clear from the design of the LLP that it has no purpose other than proc'ing Spotter, since it gives you virtually nothing you wouldn't otherwise have without it. (Enemies are marked on moving the reticle over them even without an LLP, so the LLP provides virtually no informational advantage.)
    And yet that isn't always possible or practical. There are several sections of Legendary missions where seeking a wider field of fire is extremely dangerous and obtaining LoS with or without it being associated with a talent or a pulse has a very short window of success. Throw into that mix that Legendary NPCs can have pulse resists as high as 70% and we can already see how things are never quite as simple as they appear at a quick glance.

    There's no advantage for the solo player but for groups the advantages can be significant.

    Yes, that's its only use but as stated it also brings the added benefit of freeing up a skill slot that would otherwise have to be populated by a scanner pulse in order to benefit from it. The pulse also has a certain duration within which the pulsed target is still visible even when in full cover, so once pulsed, useful information is still returned to the player. Some of those Legendaries have excellent movement and cover-to-cover plays that can move them around the map at a fast pace, so remaining pulsed after LLP does its thing remains beneficial for those little ninja sh*!s that move like a hamster on crack.
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  4. #24
    CategoryTheory's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by RichardOshea Go to original post
    And yet that isn't always possible or practical.
    Right. In other words, it's not possible or practical to get into a position where you can shoot the enemy, so whether or not you can pulse him to proc Spotter doesn't matter. If you don't, you do 0 damage. If you do pulse him, through whatever means, you do 0 damage. I'm not sure what's so hard about this concept.

    If you want to start a thread about using skill builds without the Linked Laser Pointer, please do so. Please don't keep trying to derail this thread on to a different topic.
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  5. #25
    Originally Posted by CategoryTheory Go to original post
    Right. In other words, it's not possible or practical to get into a position where you can shoot the enemy, so whether or not you can pulse him to proc Spotter doesn't matter. If you don't, you do 0 damage. If you do pulse him, through whatever means, you do 0 damage. I'm not sure what's so hard about this concept.

    If you want to start a thread about using skill builds without the Linked Laser Pointer, please do so. Please don't keep trying to derail this thread on to a different topic.
    I can see you're having trouble understanding certain things but I've tried my best to explain where your lines of reasoning about them are off base. I'm not discussing skill builds at all outside of noting that they too benefit from Spotter and that is also procced by LL. The thread was about LLPs effective range which has been settled already, so by definition the discusssion ran its course some time ago.


    Stop being precious; it ain't that important. Considering that I spent three hours putting a video together to help you answer that very question, your attempt at characterising me as disruptive is about as accurate as your understanding of how aspects of the game connect together to form a cohesive whole.
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  6. #26
    CategoryTheory's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by RichardOshea Go to original post
    I can see you're having trouble understanding certain things but I've tried my best to explain where your lines of reasoning about them are off base. I'm not discussing skill builds at all....
    Ok, if you really are leaving skill builds out of it, and we start with the typical "equip Spotter, mount LLP on a weapon, and shoot things with that weapon" situation, I do not understand at all what you're proposing to change about that and why it would be in any way helpful. But I would like to. So perhaps you can take me step by step through an example telling me exactly what you changed and how this helps you do damage that you can't do with the base Spotter/weapon/LLP scenario.\

    You did mention in an earlier message something to which I forgot to reply:

    The pulse also has a certain duration within which the pulsed target is still visible even when in full cover, so once pulsed, useful information is still returned to the player.
    What significantly useful information do you get from this don't get from the standard "triangle over the head" that shows you exactly where the enemy is anyway? (Significant enough to lose, say, 5-12% critical damage?)
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  7. #27
    CategoryTheory's Avatar Senior Member
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    In case anybody else also wants to test this out, another possibly more useful skill that gives a range indicator is Ranger (amplifies weapon damage by +2% for every 5m you are away from the target). This shows range out to 99 m; that seems also to be the maximum range at which any weapon will hit.

    However, it does introduce the problem that the damage then changes throughout the range, though possibly not by enough within a limited range of distances that the 15% difference for Spotter wouldn't still be fairly obvious.

    Though less conveniient to use, throwables can also show range if you need range to a spot or object, rather than to an enemy. This is limited to the range at which you can throw things, of course: 47 m for a grenade, 20 m for a turret, or less if you don't have enough overhead clearance.

    Are there any other things with range indicators that I've missed?
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