1. #21
    Originally Posted by SolidSage Go to original post
    Conviction made it clear that Ubisoft is capable of developing good new characters, (Kestrel, AND Archer) detached from Legacy story lines, as long as the main character continues to be the covert operation and spy/espionage theme.
    Don't get me wrong - I don't think Archer was poorly developed (especially considering that that whole part of the game was kind of an afterthought, that team did well). I dislike Archer's traits, and don't want to play as a character like that, but he served a purpose and elevated Kestrel that much higher, so, all good.
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  2. #22
    Originally Posted by CoastalGirl Go to original post
    Don't get me wrong - I don't think Archer was poorly developed (especially considering that that whole part of the game was kind of an afterthought, that team did well). I dislike Archer's traits, and don't want to play as a character like that, but he served a purpose and elevated Kestrel that much higher, so, all good.

    I think there is enough agreement to show that while Sam is character we care about, he isn't as essential to the brand as Ubisoft's marketing department wants to believe. The true identity of Splinter Cell was/is three silent lights from nightvision goggles, standing in the dark. I don't know how many times I need to say this, the personal angle of Sam, his story, his friendships, isn't necessary, and is even detrimental to the game. He's a cynical patriot called in to do a job. He does't actually matter. He isn't supposed to even exist, he's a ghost that breaks in to places and gathers actionable intelligence. If he's caught then the government denies his existence. Third-Echelon is an unknown division of the NSA (notice how i didn't say Fourth), they don't have a corporate office, they are funded through dark finance, left to operate somewhat independently and report directly to the Joint Chiefs of Staff. They spy on terrorists and foreign threats for matters of national security, with no personal ties to the players they are spying on. There is your story, and the character just needs to fill that role without being personal invested, or acting like an emotional loose cannon.
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  3. #23
    LuckyBide's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by CoastalGirl Go to original post
    I guess we're still stuck in the "it's a valuable IP, but we don't know how use it" hole. I would go with a smaller team, committed to stealth, but it seems like they just want too much from it for that to be an option. The blockbuster type games are so expensive to make, but a small team can do amazing things... And if they could do it Unreal 5, with a single-player editor, that would be great.
    My personal expectations would be for them to get inspiration from what IO Interactive did with Hitman. Go back to the old slow-paced formula, modernize it, redefine stealth AI by creating new types of reaction that seem more realistic and more challenging and then put all of that in large open-ended maps with a complex level design allowing the player to have multiple routes and diversified options. Give us tools and gadgets like a grapple, the glass cutter and the winch from DA, fence cutters and other ones so we can have more verticality and even create our own paths.
    Unreal Engine 5 would be a great engine for sure And maybe RTX could help having more realistic lightings.

    I know it would not be easy to make such a game but I'm sure it is feasible and what Splinter Cell would have already been if the series hadn't strayed from its roots.


    Originally Posted by generalbrown20 Go to original post
    I think there is enough agreement to show that while Sam is character we care about, he isn't as essential to the brand as Ubisoft's marketing department wants to believe. The true identity of Splinter Cell was/is three silent lights from nightvision goggles, standing in the dark. I don't know how many times I need to say this, the personal angle of Sam, his story, his friendships, isn't necessary, and is even detrimental to the game. He's a cynical patriot called in to do a job. He does't actually matter. He isn't supposed to even exist, he's a ghost that breaks in to places and gathers actionable intelligence. If he's caught then the government denies his existence. Third-Echelon is an unknown division of the NSA (notice how i didn't say Fourth), they don't have a corporate office, they are funded through dark finance, left to operate somewhat independently and report directly to the Joint Chiefs of Staff. They spy on terrorists and foreign threats for matters of national security, with no personal ties to the players they are spying on. There is your story, and the character just needs to fill that role without being personal invested, or acting like an emotional loose cannon.
    I think Sam deserves at least a last great story before he retires and passes the torch to someone else or before the series ends once and for all. And according to me Michael Ironside must be the one who puts an end to Sam's story since he created this character.
    Sam's personality and humor are quite unique in the videogame environment. I think it would be sad to loose a character that still has so much potential or consider that Blacklist would be his last adventure. And I don't think his character was detrimental to the game, on the contrary I think his role was perfect and welcomed. His humor was needed to counterbalance the seriousness of both gameplay and story, and his human side was perfect to counterbalance the fact that the work he was doing had a worldwide impact going beyond the player's understanding and power.
    A game without Sam could be a great game for sure, but it would lack something if the new character doesn't show some of his human side or don't connect at all with the player.
    And I consider it sad having games with main characters not having or showing at least a small amount of humanity or emotions. Sure it's not mandatory but it's always a nice addition to the game when there's one.

    Originally Posted by SolidSage Go to original post
    Moving forward a Custom Operative (M/F) is the only thing that really make sense to me. I don't want to play a reboot of Sam's story, or drag the old guy out for one more hard to believe outing. Or play as someone connected to Sam so my emotional attachment stamina bar stays full.
    I personally don't like random character the the player can customize, they're usually bland, uninteresting, poorly written and nowadays they're a norm in many games because character customization has became an easy way to sell skins. And so do other types of fancy customizations, that I usually dislike.

    As for Sam I would not be surprised to see him again on the field. I mean Jean-Claude Van Damme is still making split jumps at the age of 60 years old : https://youtu.be/G4_ULVw5L04?t=15
    Sure it would not be realistic to send Sam on the field at his age but I always wondered if that really matters in an entertainment media like videogames.
    I know the arguments of people who would say yes and I understand them. But I have a question: when you see movies with actors like Jean-Claude Van Damme still being very athletic and making splits at 60 years old, or even Sylvester Stallone making high action packed movies at 70 years old like the last Rambo movie, do you consider these movies as ridiculous or don't watch them because of the age of the actors ?

    In my opinion everybody know this is unrealistic but most of people just love to see their favorites actors and characters, and they want to see them being in new movies no matter how old they are. Of course some of these movies are sometimes ridiculous and it would have been better to never release them.
    But I think it's the same for videogames, once you've playing them you quickly forget about the age of the hero as long as the character writing is good and faithful to what you were used to in the previous games you loved. Of course in the case of Splinter Cell, it used to be a game trying to be as close as possible to realism so there's a very hard balance to get between realism and keeping a character that players love.

    Anyway I'm sure everybody would be happy no matter what if a new game features Sam with a good writing.
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  4. #24
    KenTWOu's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by CoastalGirl Go to original post
    Seeing the focus on action (again lol) was certainly disappointing. The overall quality of the game is quite good, IMO, they just weren't trying to make the hardcore stealth game that I was hoping for
    When it comes to single player campaign you could finish all of the Blacklist missions getting ghost points only, but because of the forced stealth and non-lethal sequences you couldn't complete the same story missions getting only panther or only assault points. Moreover, there were Grim missions, which were made exclusively for stealth players.
    Therefore there was no focus on action in Blacklist. it's just a myth people who didn't like Blacklist love to maintain.

    Originally Posted by SolidSage Go to original post
    Moving forward a Custom Operative (M/F) is the only thing that really make sense to me. I don't want to play a reboot of Sam's story, or drag the old guy out for one more hard to believe outing. Or play as someone connected to Sam so my emotional attachment stamina bar stays full.

    I mean, Sam in my ear would be fine, AND make ACTUAL logical sense.
    I would love to play something like that, but... Watch Dogs: Legion already scratched that itch. More over, the way it auto generates recruits related side missions and places their objectives right inside the areas with the main campaign objectives... Basically it's everything I wanted from Deniable Ops 2.0. It's glorious!

    Besides, Legion is deep enough in terms of stealth mechanics and AI. More often than not It feels like you're playing Blacklist with a bigger focus on high tech devices and a pinch of disguises. No wonder Martin Walsh was AI programmer on both games, to be more specific he was technology director, gameplay & AI on Legion.

    That said I would be happy if Ubisoft Toronto would make the next Splinter Cell based on Legion tech.
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  5. #25
    Originally Posted by generalbrown20 Go to original post
    I think there is enough agreement to show that while Sam is character we care about, he isn't as essential to the brand as Ubisoft's marketing department wants to believe. The true identity of Splinter Cell was/is three silent lights from nightvision goggles, standing in the dark. I don't know how many times I need to say this, the personal angle of Sam, his story, his friendships, isn't necessary, and is even detrimental to the game. He's a cynical patriot called in to do a job. He does't actually matter. He isn't supposed to even exist, he's a ghost that breaks in to places and gathers actionable intelligence. If he's caught then the government denies his existence. Third-Echelon is an unknown division of the NSA (notice how i didn't say Fourth), they don't have a corporate office, they are funded through dark finance, left to operate somewhat independently and report directly to the Joint Chiefs of Staff. They spy on terrorists and foreign threats for matters of national security, with no personal ties to the players they are spying on. There is your story, and the character just needs to fill that role without being personal invested, or acting like an emotional loose cannon.
    I don't think that the personal side has to be detrimental, but historically, it hasn't always improved my experience. Early on, making him a single father worked fine for me. It was another reason to be protective and careful with him, which suits my gameplay style. I also loved his dark humor. But then you have things like "Press whatever button to punch Grim in the face"...SO SO BAD.


    Originally Posted by LuckyBide Go to original post
    My personal expectations would be for them to get inspiration from what IO Interactive did with Hitman. Go back to the old slow-paced formula, modernize it, redefine stealth AI by creating new types of reaction that seem more realistic and more challenging and then put all of that in large open-ended maps with a complex level design allowing the player to have multiple routes and diversified options. Give us tools and gadgets like a grapple, the glass cutter and the winch from DA, fence cutters and other ones so we can have more verticality and even create our own paths.
    Unreal Engine 5 would be a great engine for sure And maybe RTX could help having more realistic lightings.
    I know it would not be easy to make such a game but I'm sure it is feasible and what Splinter Cell would have already been if the series hadn't strayed from its roots.
    I'm kind of sad that I've never been able to get into the Hitman games. They look so nice, but I try to play them and I just don't like the hide in plain sight thing.


    I personally don't like random character the the player can customize, they're usually bland, uninteresting, poorly written and nowadays they're a norm in many games because character customization has became an easy way to sell skins. And so do other types of fancy customizations, that I usually dislike.
    I'm definitely more invested in characters that are well defined. There's kind a middle ground, I guess, like they used in Valhalla, where you're essentially the same character. All of the interactions are the same, it's really just the voice that's different. I'm not saying it's the best thing, but it's okay.


    Originally Posted by KenTWOu Go to original post
    When it comes to single player campaign you could finish all of the Blacklist missions getting ghost points only, but because of the forced stealth and non-lethal sequences you couldn't complete the same story missions getting only panther or only assault points. Moreover, there were Grim missions, which were made exclusively for stealth players.
    Therefore there was no focus on action in Blacklist. it's just a myth people who didn't like Blacklist love to maintain.
    Not a myth, an opinion.
    I'm not saying there's not stealth, of course there is, but compared to the older games, it's nerfed. The binary thing alone is a fairly big hit to the depth of the stealth experience. And, to me, there are very obvious pushes toward action, too. Again, feeling like I'm fighting against the design to play the way I want isn't a good thing (and I know a lot of action-oriented players feel the same way about forced stealth...though this is a stealth series, after all lol).


    I would love to play something like that, but... Watch Dogs: Legion already scratched that itch. More over, the way it auto generates recruits related side missions and places their objectives right inside the areas with the main campaign objectives... Basically it's everything I wanted from Deniable Ops 2.0. It's glorious!
    I haven't played Legion yet, but I did play 2. It was entertaining - driving a fully raised scissor lift across the Golden Gate was fun times. But the stealth was lacking for me. It was too basic, and iirc, it was really easy to abuse gadgets. Fun game for what it was, though.

    Also, it seems like they're using this formula more and more. The mastery challenges just added to Valhalla are similar to D-Ops, too, with mostly mini sandbox maps suited to whatever play style that challenge focuses on. Most of the stealth challenges were decent, though some do have the vibe of "baby's first stealth game", where the enemy placement and hide spots give you a very clear path to take. When I do get around to Legion I'll have to see how it feels; I have high expectations mainly because of Clint, but it's a very different game so, we'll see.
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  6. #26
    LuckyBide's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by KenTWOu Go to original post
    Therefore there was no focus on action in Blacklist. it's just a myth people who didn't like Blacklist love to maintain.
    The focus was rather on panther playstyle than on action, and that's a fact. But we already had that conversation a million times on this forum.

    Originally Posted by CoastalGirl Go to original post
    I don't think that the personal side has to be detrimental, but historically, it hasn't always improved my experience. Early on, making him a single father worked fine for me. It was another reason to be protective and careful with him, which suits my gameplay style. I also loved his dark humor. But then you have things like "Press whatever button to punch Grim in the face"...SO SO BAD.
    I agree. And as long as Sam's personal stories and problems didn't mess with the main story, it was great and helped to give a little bit of different air because (sadly) not everybody likes or is interested into Tom Clancy geopolitical/political plots. And during missions Sam making dark humor, jokes with the team or questioning Lambert orders through player's actions like when he had to kill (or not) Dahlia Tal or save (or not) those American pilots in Seoul were some nice and welcomed little additions to the game.


    Originally Posted by CoastalGirl Go to original post
    I'm kind of sad that I've never been able to get into the Hitman games. They look so nice, but I try to play them and I just don't like the hide in plain sight thing.
    Oh :/ That's sad indeed but I can understand that the core gameplay concept isn't your thing. You can play these games by sneaking and without trying to change your outfit (which is called Suit Only challenge in the game) but playing like that is in my opinion not as fun as playing the game the normal way and neither as good as Splinter Cell "always stay hidden gameplay"


    Originally Posted by CoastalGirl Go to original post
    I'm definitely more invested in characters that are well defined. There's kind a middle ground, I guess, like they used in Valhalla, where you're essentially the same character. All of the interactions are the same, it's really just the voice that's different. I'm not saying it's the best thing, but it's okay.
    Yeah I get why they're doing this but I get way less connection with a customized character because it always seems to me that they have to sacrifice some depth in the writing of the character. It feels the same to me as levels that are playable both in singleplayer and coop. At the end they have to find a common denominator and sacrifice a lot of things to adapt them to both modes, and it can never be as good as a game that focuses on one single character or on a level only playable solo.
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  7. #27
    KenTWOu's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by CoastalGirl Go to original post
    And, to me, there are very obvious pushes toward action, too. Again, feeling like I'm fighting against the design to play the way I want isn't a good thing (and I know a lot of action-oriented players feel the same way about forced stealth...though this is a stealth series, after all lol).
    Look, I tried to play all the missions focusing on each play style, sort of play it my way, as advertised. I had that feeling (fighting against the design) especially when I used panther and assault styles. The ghost playstyle (not the real ghost aka Thief pure ghost, don't touch anything ghost, don't leave any traces ghost, but Blacklist one) is the best one of them all, the most polished one both in terms of game mechanics and score system.

    I could say that Conviction single player campaign was action oriented, I can't say the same thing about Blacklist single player campaign.

    Originally Posted by LuckyBide Go to original post
    The focus was rather on panther playstyle than on action, and that's a fact. But we already had that conversation a million times on this forum.
    CoastalGirl, see, that's what I'm talking about.

    Dear, LuckyBide, your statement is a lie. Blacklist left a sour taste in panther fan's mouths. Ask SolidSage, Jazz117Volkov or Shobhit. Because Blacklist devs messed up Panther style to please hardcore stealth players. And that's a fact.

    They've made M&E mechanic less powerful. You can't use the same old Conviction tactic - one H2H attack equals 4 M&E marks - anymore. All weapons have 3 marks only, and one H2H attack doesn't recharge all of them on higher most fun, most challenging difficulties. Did I mention that they turned off M&E completely on Perfectionist? That's a fact. Did I mention helmets? That's another M&E block and significant one.

    When we found the way how to mod Blacklist on PC the first thing Jazz117Volkov did is fix that mess bringing back old Conviction M&E rules.

    His mod brought back the old rules, but it couldn't bring back Conviction level design, which was based around spacious rooms built around massive M&E executions. Why? Because again they pleased stealth fans! They've made levels less spacious, blocked them using different obstacles, broke enemies line of sights so it was easier to hide from them. They've made enemies less numerous, again to make stealth less frustrating, make it possible.

    I remember how Shobhit listed zones from Blacklist levels that were fun for Panthers, they were few and far between.

    Long story short, It wasn't fun to play Blacklist using Panther style. And, as mentioned previously, Grim's missions were awful for Panthers. Blacklist was primary focused on ghost playstyle, and that's a fact.
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  8. #28
    KenTWOu's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by CoastalGirl Go to original post
    I haven't played Legion yet, but I did play 2. It was entertaining - driving a fully raised scissor lift across the Golden Gate was fun times. But the stealth was lacking for me. It was too basic, and iirc, it was really easy to abuse gadgets. Fun game for what it was, though.
    I have WD2, because Ubisoft gave it away for free on PC a couple of years ago, but haven't played it yet, unfortunately. But AFAIK features I'll describe next were first introduced in Legion.

    First, Legion has melee combat, you can punch, evade and counter-attack, and break enemies blocks.
    Second, if you attack enemies with bare hands they don't use guns immediately.

    So If a single guard notices you, you can hide, get behind him and knock him out. Some kind of death-from-above attacks are also possible, but that's not Splinter Cell, so there are no acrobatics, no hanging from walls, no pipes and stuff. It's like he's running behind a container, you can jump on him from that container. But if you won't be able to knock the guard out after that you can still beat him in melee combat without raising the alert.

    And that changes everything!

    Thanks to that it's possible to recover and get back to stealth even after a little screw-up. It's even easier to do that if your recruit has melee specific perks like dealing more melee damage by default, after takedown, evade or while drunk, etc. And that combination of features helps you stay in stealth much, much longer in a more elegant way than Splinter Cell's M&E or MGSV refleх mode.
    Of course, you can still hide, wait a little bit till enemies forget about you and continue your work. The game is very generous in these regards.

    To me out of all stealth action games I played recently (and there are not enough of them) Legion stealth gameplay loop was the most satisfying one. Of course, the game doesn't have light and shadow based stealth mechanics, so a game with shadows on top of that would be even better.
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  9. #29
    LuckyBide's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by KenTWOu Go to original post
    Dear, LuckyBide, your statement is a lie. Blacklist left a sour taste in panther fan's mouths. Ask SolidSage, Jazz117Volkov or Shobhit. Because Blacklist devs messed up Panther style to please hardcore stealth players. And that's a fact.

    They've made M&E mechanic less powerful. You can't use the same old Conviction tactic - one H2H attack equals 4 M&E marks - anymore. All weapons have 3 marks only, and one H2H attack doesn't recharge all of them on higher most fun, most challenging difficulties. Did I mention that they turned off M&E completely on Perfectionist? That's a fact. Did I mention helmets? That's another M&E block and significant one.

    When we found the way how to mod Blacklist on PC the first thing Jazz117Volkov did is fix that mess bringing back old Conviction M&E rules.

    His mod brought back the old rules, but it couldn't bring back Conviction level design, which was based around spacious rooms built around massive M&E executions. Why? Because again they pleased stealth fans! They've made levels less spacious, blocked them using different obstacles, broke enemies line of sights so it was easier to hide from them. They've made enemies less numerous, again to make stealth less frustrating, make it possible.

    I remember how Shobhit listed zones from Blacklist levels that were fun for Panthers, they were few and far between.

    Long story short, It wasn't fun to play Blacklist using Panther style. And, as mentioned previously, Grim's missions were awful for Panthers. Blacklist was primary focused on ghost playstyle, and that's a fact.

    Dear KenTWOu, saying that Blacklist was primary focused on ghost playstyle by implying that it was therefore focused on pure hardcore stealth players is a lie, and you know by fact that this game left a way bigger sour taste in stealth fan's mouths. Many hardcore fans criticized the game on that and gave many valid arguments to support their words throughout the years here and elsewhere.

    I'm not going to detail all of them because we've already digged that topic too many times. But one of the most important arguments is simply about the pace of the game that doesn't fit with stealth. And also the fact that they highly reduced the noise detection by AI (and a former developer explained it once in a GDC presentation), which combined to the pace of the game removes all the tension that a stealth gameplay is supposed to have. And we can add to that those unrealistic takedowns and animations that Sam has, also contributing to ruin the tension because they're way too fast paced.
    We can also talk about the poor and artificial feeling level design, mostly composed of alternative paths allowing the player to bypass enemies and avoid them. Or about the guards behavior, positioning and patterns looking weird and generic, and sometimes giving the impression they were looking for an intruder even when you haven't been seen once.
    We can add many other things that the game did badly or lacked from the early games. And by the way it's not because the final scoreboard gives you extra points for playing ghost that it means the gameplay is focusing on stealth.

    I hear your arguments about panther playstyle and I understand them, they apparently changed that panther playstyle too much at a point that even fans of panther playstyle like you were disappointed.
    But to me the game is definitely focused on panther playstyle because they built the game on Conviction assets and it has those same type of quick takedowns & animations. And also because the devs showed panther playstyle first at the E3 2012 demo to show the continuity with Conviction.
    Anyway to me that playstyle and all its mechanics like M&E shouldn't even be put forward in a Splinter Cell game at first place and neither being part of a series that used to be about hardcore stealth gameplay, period. It's a fun gameplay for sure but Ubisoft should have done a spin-off game or created a new IP with that gameplay. And imo they could still make one and have some success with it.

    Honestly there were also many places where to hide and many objects providing cover in Conviction, level design wasn't great and seemed artificial but I agree it was efficient for a panther playstyle.
    But in Blacklist I only remember some parts of the Guantanamo and Site F missions as interesting to play as a hardcore stealth player. I honestly disliked all the rest because it s*cked, and it's way too easy to ghost in this game.

    So Blacklist was not focused stealth at all, and being able to ghost the entire game doesn't mean it makes it a good stealth game and even less a hardcore stealth game. Because that was not the type of ghost playstyle that hardcore stealth players like me were expecting nor the one the franchise has accustomed us in the old games.

    But that's probably the intrinsic problem of this game, it wanted to please so many people and so many different types of players at once but at the end it has partially or totally disappointed many of us.
    That's why I'll always keep saying that the "multiple playstyles" thing was just some marketing strategy bullsh*t to try to sell the game to the largest audience possible, but as expected it was a failure at the end.
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  10. #30
    Originally Posted by LuckyBide Go to original post
    I agree. And as long as Sam's personal stories and problems didn't mess with the main story, it was great and helped to give a little bit of different air because (sadly) not everybody likes or is interested into Tom Clancy geopolitical/political plots. And during missions Sam making dark humor, jokes with the team or questioning Lambert orders through player's actions like when he had to kill (or not) Dahlia Tal or save (or not) those American pilots in Seoul were some nice and welcomed little additions to the game.
    Yeah, I loved his relationships with Grim and Lambert, especially. Despite the seriousness of the situations, the lighthearted banter worked well. Seems like it hit its peak in CT (what didn't? lol), but I'd like to see that again. It was definitely one of the things that set the SCs apart.
    Oh :/ That's sad indeed but I can understand that the core gameplay concept isn't your thing. You can play these games by sneaking and without trying to change your outfit (which is called Suit Only challenge in the game) but playing like that is in my opinion not as fun as playing the game the normal way and neither as good as Splinter Cell "always stay hidden gameplay"
    That's what I ran into - I just felt like the game didn't want me to play that way. Granted, that happens to me a LOT, because I always try to stealth and very, very few games are actually designed around it.


    Originally Posted by KenTWOu Go to original post
    Look, I tried to play all the missions focusing on each play style, sort of play it my way, as advertised. I had that feeling (fighting against the design) especially when I used panther and assault styles. The ghost playstyle (not the real ghost aka Thief pure ghost, don't touch anything ghost, don't leave any traces ghost, but Blacklist one) is the best one of them all, the most polished one both in terms of game mechanics and score system.
    That's the thing, though - in trying to please everyone, they sacrified a lot. For years we watched the shift in gameplay, starting with DA, really, and I hoped they could figure out a way to regain the depth of the stealth while adding the more action-oriented features that they thought were needed. It just didn't play out.
    I could say that Conviction single player campaign was action oriented, I can't say the same thing about Blacklist single player campaign.
    Well certainly, compared to Conviction... lol It was never meant to be a hardcore stealth game. But, the co-op/D-Ops team did great things with the same base, so it didn't have to be that way.
    They've made M&E mechanic less powerful. You can't use the same old Conviction tactic - one H2H attack equals 4 M&E marks - anymore. All weapons have 3 marks only, and one H2H attack doesn't recharge all of them on higher most fun, most challenging difficulties. Did I mention that they turned off M&E completely on Perfectionist? That's a fact. Did I mention helmets? That's another M&E block and significant one.
    I sometimes forget that M&E is even a thing because I never use it. lol I hear you, though. Unfun to have features messed with, right?
    Long story short, It wasn't fun to play Blacklist using Panther style. And, as mentioned previously, Grim's missions were awful for Panthers. Blacklist was primary focused on ghost playstyle, and that's a fact.
    Meh...each group of missions had its own focus, definitely not just ghosting. Same basic formula as D-Ops, with the different types suiting different play styles. I'm okay with that.
    Originally Posted by KenTWOu Go to original post
    Thanks to that it's possible to recover and get back to stealth even after a little screw-up. It's even easier to do that if your recruit has melee specific perks like dealing more melee damage by default, after takedown, evade or while drunk, etc. And that combination of features helps you stay in stealth much, much longer in a more elegant way than Splinter Cell's M&E or MGSV refleх mode.
    I guess I'm just too much of a ghoster - I like stealth to be clean and smooth, but also unforgiving. One of the things I like the most about the genre is the tension. If there are no consequences, it's just not that tense.
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