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  1. #21
    Virtual-Chris's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Sircowdog1 Go to original post
    A bunch of different topics here from several different posters, so I'm not going to try that format on my Phone.

    Anyway.....

    So, we have to remember that this is a looter game. And there are a of variables to getting a specific item with specific attributes.

    Weapons, Armor, Skill mods, Weapon mods, Armor mods.

    And then within weapons you've got 7 weapon types and 11 rifle types.

    And THEN if you're lucky enough to have a Mk17 drop, there's a secondary attribute and a talent to roll.

    That's why it's called a "God" roll: because it's almost an act of god for all of that to fall into place with every attribute max. But also because when you get it all maxed and perfect, it's godlike.

    But...here's the thing. We've got tools to help us skew the system in our favor. Targeted loot, blueprints, Recalibration, Optimization higher difficulty, vendors, and with Summit there are directives.

    And the game also does a good job of throwing a lot of drops at you. Random drops from kills. Rewards from mission and event completion. Field prof boxes, daily and weekly projects, seasonal boxes. And if you've got regular friends to play with willing to trade....well...youre all set.
    This is all good, but the main issue, IMHO, is during the first 40 levels of play... Not the end game. Forcing someone to switch weapons every two levels is not fun. It’s not fun for anyone when your preferred weapon only drops once every 15 levels or so.

    Within a few levels of starting out, you know what play style you want and what weapon or few weapons best suit that style. Forcing someone to compromise on weapon choice or play style while levelling is not fun.

    If I had a hand in this games design, I would make all the weapon Blueprints obtainable through some objective or mission or crate in the world early in the game. I got the Super 90 blueprint early on which helped tremendously. This should be the case for other weapon blueprints.

    By level 5, I should know what weapon blueprints I need, figure out what side missions I need to do (or whatever) to get them, and get it done. I’m over level 100 now (65 watch levels + 40 before that) and still don’t have a clue where to get a blueprint for my preferred weapon. That’s ridiculous.

    If some players want to try everything before settling into a load out and play style, that option is available to them. But don’t force everyone to follow this path.

    Now the other issue is the sheer volume of different weapons and gear. That alone makes the chance of getting something you’re looking for damn near impossible. As you point out, there’s probably close to 100 different weapons, 20 talents, and a few attributes for about 5000 different gun variations (never mind how they are rolled). Then there’s 6 types of gear, 30 brands or gear sets, 20 different Talents, and two or three attributes... for about 10000 different types of gear (before considering the quality of roles). Now as you point out, targeted loot helps dwindle this down, but that’s not available until end game. Why? It’s dumb.
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  2. #22
    Make do with what you have, and keep looking... part of the re-playability, doing the same mission with different gear may feel as a different experience. Same kind of justification for the high volume of options.
    My point was that when you finish an epic battle (with a few curve balls in it), you should get some quality drops proportional to that. Perhaps that RNG seed could / should take that in consideration.
    The other thing is that I feel the game is throwing at me all the gear that I don't want and I keep deconstructing... Oh, you just deconstructed five yellow pieces? Here you go, six more.
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  3. #23
    CategoryTheory's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Virtual-Chris Go to original post
    This is all good, but the main issue, IMHO, is during the first 40 levels of play... Not the end game. Forcing someone to switch weapons every two levels is not fun. It’s not fun for anyone when your preferred weapon only drops once every 15 levels or so.
    This is simply wrong. Why you think that you know better than me what I find fun I'm not sure, but consider how you would feel if I told you you actually do find spongy enemies fun, and you've just been lying about that on the forums for the past month.

    I wouldn't trust someone talking about game design when they make such simple errors in understanding other players.

    I’m over level 100 now (65 watch levels + 40 before that) and still don’t have a clue where to get a blueprint for my preferred weapon.
    You've not been paying much attention, then. Level 3 and above checkpoints drop a random blueprint, and you've also seen many projects and, now that you've been at level 40 for a while, missions, that do the same.

    Now as you point out, targeted loot helps dwindle this down, but that’s not available until end game. Why? It’s dumb.
    To reward those players with the skill to put together a good build from more than just nine exact items from the hundreds available.
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  4. #24
    N3mB0t's Avatar Senior Member
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    hey chris , ive been folowing your new player thread and others like this one and i get a strong vibe you are in the wrong game...

    if you keep insisting to play this like you played breakpoint you arent going to be happy for much more time , theory crafting and even achieving the best possible build to use on a daily basis , and that incudes "magical" talents , is the salt of the game, if you dont start loving this aspect of the game you will be bored very very soon.

    and like CategoryTheory said start paying more attention at what people answer to your doubts , you seem to just ask and not really read the answers so much.
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  5. #25
    Sircowdog1's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Virtual-Chris Go to original post
    This is all good, but the main issue, IMHO, is during the first 40 levels of play... Not the end game. Forcing someone to switch weapons every two levels is not fun. It’s not fun for anyone when your preferred weapon only drops once every 15 levels or so.

    Within a few levels of starting out, you know what play style you want and what weapon or few weapons best suit that style. Forcing someone to compromise on weapon choice or play style while levelling is not fun.
    I would only make a single point in response to that: It's not for for you. Other people might enjoy being exposed to many different playstyles and options. Which is often then entire point of leveling in games.

    This is a looter. Acquiring a bunch of random stuff is also kind of the point. And as with most looters, the real bulk of the game is done at the end...not while leveling.

    And while you may have quickly identified the playstyle that you enjoy most, that's kind of the exception, not the rule. I'm STILL finding new playstyles to try and enjoy, and I have over 1000 hours in the game. So don't be too quick to criticize the game because it doesn't cater specifically to your playstyle(which is a point that was made to me in regards to raiding, although I still think it doesn't have a place here).


    Originally Posted by Virtual-Chris Go to original post
    If I had a hand in this games design, I would make all the weapon Blueprints obtainable through some objective or mission or crate in the world early in the game. I got the Super 90 blueprint early on which helped tremendously. This should be the case for other weapon blueprints.

    If some players want to try everything before settling into a load out and play style, that option is available to them. But don’t force everyone to follow this path.
    Perhaps a better system would be that instead of making all blueprints available so easily, allow a handful of them to be chosen from a list early on as objective rewards. This way a player could choose a specific playstyle early, while still leaving the rest as random drops to hunt down as part of the looter experience.

    Originally Posted by Virtual-Chris Go to original post
    By level 5, I should know what weapon blueprints I need, figure out what side missions I need to do (or whatever) to get them, and get it done. I’m over level 100 now (65 watch levels + 40 before that) and still don’t have a clue where to get a blueprint for my preferred weapon. That’s ridiculous.
    The primary source of blueprints is by completing level 3 or 4 control points. And you're right that it's a bad design to not explain that somewhere. There are a LOT of little things like that in this game. Stuff that the community had to figure out because it wasn't explained anywhere in-game.




    Originally Posted by Virtual-Chris Go to original post
    Now the other issue is the sheer volume of different weapons and gear. That alone makes the chance of getting something you’re looking for damn near impossible. As you point out, there’s probably close to 100 different weapons, 20 talents, and a few attributes for about 5000 different gun variations (never mind how they are rolled). Then there’s 6 types of gear, 30 brands or gear sets, 20 different Talents, and two or three attributes... for about 10000 different types of gear (before considering the quality of roles). Now as you point out, targeted loot helps dwindle this down, but that’s not available until end game. Why? It’s dumb.
    You might have missed the point of my post. It's not just targeted loot.

    There are a LOT of tools to filter down to the types of gear you want. The only place it gets tricky is if you are hunting VERY specific pieces of gear, with very specific attributes dropping at maximum values. But despite that, somehow a LOT of us still somehow manage to acquire that gear.

    I would strongly suggest one final option at your disposal: Broaden the style of play that you're willing to use. One of the main strengths of Division 2 is that gear and build variety is at an alltime high. The game has NEVER been as diverse as it is now. There almost isn't a META anymore because of how effective many different styles of play are at all levels and content.

    But really it's a glass half full/empty sort of problem. Some people enjoy the hunt for that specific piece of gear. Others, like yourself, seem to find it annoying. And I don't think it's necessarily a problem with the loot system itself, but rather one of perception and preference.

    Anyway, that's a lot of general philosophy. If you want specific, directed help, you could take a screenshot of your current build, and I(and no doubt others) will gladly see what can be done to improve your stuff to get you into challenging where you can start chasing down those blueprints. Who knows, it might drop from the first control point you run.
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  6. #26
    N3mB0t's Avatar Senior Member
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    who else misses when games came with a manual that was very much like a phonebook?


    at least you didnt had to guess anything or remember it from a 30 seconds tutorial.
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  7. #27
    Virtual-Chris's Avatar Senior Member
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    I seem to have struck a cord here... partly my fault for over-generalizing, which is a valid complaint. Saying something is "not fun for everyone" is plain wrong... my apologies for that. However, I think it's reasonable to assume I'm probably representative of some portion of gamers that have played this game, it's just impossible to know how many: a tiny minority or a vast majority - impossible to say. Never the less, I will try to refrain from making generalizations about what others may like or not like.

    But I think you guys need to be less sensitive to feedback (call it criticism if you like) on the game. Just because I'm relatively new doesn't mean I can't raise issues. Nothing I've suggested or endorsed in the last few weeks such as easier access to blueprints early in the game or more HUD options, or a less spongy mode would take away anything away from the game you passionately enjoy and defend.

    I have definitely put some role-playing constraints on myself that others may not in the interest of making the game more immersive and enjoyable for me. I'm enjoying the game. Maybe I'm not playing it the way it was intended, but I think I am... I'm utilizing every aspect (except maybe the DZ)... I'm just doing it slightly differently from some of you. Fortunately, the game offers some latitude there for me to play the way I want, but I believe all my suggestions, feedback or criticism, has been focused on ways the game could be made even more flexible for folks like me to further fine-tune the game to their preferred play style. I think more options is better than less.
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  8. #28
    N3mB0t's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Virtual-Chris Go to original post
    I seem to have struck a cord here... partly my fault for over-generalizing, which is a valid complaint. Saying something is "not fun for everyone" is plain wrong... my apologies for that. However, I think it's reasonable to assume I'm probably representative of some portion of gamers that have played this game, it's just impossible to know how many: a tiny minority or a vast majority - impossible to say. Never the less, I will try to refrain from making generalizations about what others may like or not like.

    But I think you guys need to be less sensitive to feedback (call it criticism if you like) on the game. Just because I'm relatively new doesn't mean I can't raise issues. Nothing I've suggested or endorsed in the last few weeks such as easier access to blueprints early in the game or more HUD options, or a less spongy mode would take away anything away from the game you passionately enjoy and defend.

    I have definitely put some role-playing constraints on myself that others may not in the interest of making the game more immersive and enjoyable for me. I'm enjoying the game. Maybe I'm not playing it the way it was intended, but I think I am... I'm utilizing every aspect (except maybe the DZ)... I'm just doing it slightly differently from some of you. Fortunately, the game offers some latitude there for me to play the way I want, but I believe all my suggestions, feedback or criticism, has been focused on ways the game could be made even more flexible for folks like me to further fine-tune the game to their preferred play style. I think more options is better than less.
    you are doing exactly what i did for quite some time , just shoot , just one build , its when i started exploring other avenues that the game really opened up for me , completing challenges commendations and so on pushed me into , and im glad it did , SHD 5k+ and i still cant get enough of it , if not for this the game would be shelfed a long time ago , plenty other shooters out there to try , not even enough time to play them all.
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  9. #29
    Sircowdog1's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Virtual-Chris Go to original post
    I seem to have struck a cord here... partly my fault for over-generalizing, which is a valid complaint. Saying something is "not fun for everyone" is plain wrong... my apologies for that. However, I think it's reasonable to assume I'm probably representative of some portion of gamers that have played this game, it's just impossible to know how many: a tiny minority or a vast majority - impossible to say. Never the less, I will try to refrain from making generalizations about what others may like or not like.

    But I think you guys need to be less sensitive to feedback (call it criticism if you like) on the game. Just because I'm relatively new doesn't mean I can't raise issues. Nothing I've suggested or endorsed in the last few weeks such as easier access to blueprints early in the game or more HUD options, or a less spongy mode would take away anything away from the game you passionately enjoy and defend.

    I have definitely put some role-playing constraints on myself that others may not in the interest of making the game more immersive and enjoyable for me. I'm enjoying the game. Maybe I'm not playing it the way it was intended, but I think I am... I'm utilizing every aspect (except maybe the DZ)... I'm just doing it slightly differently from some of you. Fortunately, the game offers some latitude there for me to play the way I want, but I believe all my suggestions, feedback or criticism, has been focused on ways the game could be made even more flexible for folks like me to further fine-tune the game to their preferred play style. I think more options is better than less.
    What I find amusing is that almost all of us here were just talking about how the lack of focused gameplay effected the game(good or bad). But when someone suggests a change to the loot system we get up in arms. XD
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  10. #30
    CategoryTheory's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Virtual-Chris Go to original post
    But I think you guys need to be less sensitive to feedback (call it criticism if you like) on the game.

    Nothing I've suggested or endorsed in the last few weeks such as easier access to blueprints early in the game...would take away anything away from the game you passionately enjoy and defend.
    Actually, that would have taken something away from the game for me. For my first little while at level 40 I got no drops at all of what was at the time my favourite weapon (the UIC15 MOD2), to the point where I was thinking that it didn't exist at level 40. (And it took even longer to get a gold one instead of a purple one.) This actually worked out better for me in the end, since it forced me to start trying other rifles, taught me some things about loadout substitutions, and gave me another favourite weapon, the previously almost-ignored Mk17.

    ...the game offers some latitude there for me to play the way I want, but I believe all my suggestions, feedback or criticism, has been focused on ways the game could be made even more flexible for folks like me to further fine-tune the game to their preferred play style.
    It's of course very tricky to balance a game between giving the player what he wants and giving the player what he needs in order to push him a little beyond his own mental blocks that prevent him from enjoying more of the game. But I think that game designers should be pushing players a least a little bit into areas where they're not that comfortable but will (probably) learn more about the games mechanics, especially when the mechanics are as deep as they are in Division 2. And this precisely an example of that.

    Maybe I'm not playing it the way it was intended, but I think I am... I'm utilizing every aspect (except maybe the DZ)...
    No, I'd say you're definitely very far from utilizing every aspect of the game. Besides obvious very specific points (such as never using the talent specifically designed for rifle+crit builds), you also seem to be avoiding the more general (and more core to all game play styles) idea of subtly tweaking builds by using moderately different weapons and gear, as well as avoiding trying massively different builds.

    I would say that I am as yet far from having even touched every aspect of the game, and it appears that I use a much wider variety of builds than you do.

    Originally Posted by Sircowdog1 Go to original post
    This is a looter. Acquiring a bunch of random stuff is also kind of the point.
    And I would add to that, learning to make what you have work, rather than requiring certain items for certain play styles, is also part of the point. And the game designers have been really good at making substitutions work in a way that they're close enough not to make you hugely change your play style but still different enough that you learn something by making those substitutions.

    I'm STILL finding new playstyles to try and enjoy, and I have over 1000 hours in the game.
    I have a bit under 800 hours, and I feel as if I've hardly scratched the surface of all the things to investigate.

    Perhaps a better system would be that instead of making all blueprints available so easily, allow a handful of them to be chosen from a list early on as objective rewards. This way a player could choose a specific playstyle early, while still leaving the rest as random drops to hunt down as part of the looter experience.
    That is an interesting thought. I worry a bit that this might reduce the "get out there and do some work to find the thing you want" aspect of the game, but I do agree that blueprints are probably at the moment a bit too much on the "RNG takes forever" side.

    The primary source of blueprints is by completing level 3 or 4 control points. And you're right that it's a bad design to not explain that somewhere.
    Well, it is explained in the listing of rewards from the control point, but I guess that you're pointing out that you normally wouldn't see this if you didn't take some sort of action to bump a control point up to level 3 or higher. Though I was sure this was also mentioned somewhere else. Perhaps in the text when Inaya has no blueprints to sell or something like that? The more I think about it, the more sure I am that I've seen something somewhere other than the control point rewards list.

    There are a LOT of little things like that in this game. Stuff that the community had to figure out because it wasn't explained anywhere in-game.
    Yeah. I'm not sure how much of that is really "this should have been explained in text somewhere" and how much is intentional "go experiment with the game if you want to learn about it."

    One of the main strengths of Division 2 is that gear and build variety is at an alltime high. The game has NEVER been as diverse as it is now. There almost isn't a META anymore because of how effective many different styles of play are at all levels and content.
    Precisely! This is unusual, perhaps unique, amongst games of this type, and what has caused no doubt many others as well as me to spend so much time on this game.

    ...see what can be done to improve your stuff to get you into challenging where you can start chasing down those blueprints. Who knows, it might drop from the first control point you run.
    Well, I don't think that blueprints are really an issue now; going for Rifles as targeted loot would probably make more sense because he specifically wants avoid bullet sponge, and Challenging would introduce more of that. (And of course there are the projects that drop blueprints that can be done on Normal or at worst Hard in most cases, IIRC.)
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