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  1. #11
    dagrommit's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by CategoryTheory Go to original post
    Well, the summary is not exactly "go for the legs," but "go for the legs if your critical chance vs. critical damge is high enough."
    Hence the quote from reddit. The assumption being that someone with very low CHC is unlikely to have built for very high CHD.

    [edit] just noticed only one of you got the reference in the title. smh
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  2. #12
    I used to shoot the head all the time, thinking it was the right way to do. Damn...
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  3. #13
    Originally Posted by CategoryTheory Go to original post
    Thanks for the complete list there, I'd not yet sat down to work it out. (Though of course you meant the second or third one to be "damage to health," I'm sure, and it would be more clear I think if you left CHC out, since for the four other multipliers that trigger on only certain types of hits, such as headshot damage and so on, you—correctly in my view—don't include any probability for those in this particular equation.) Just out of curiosity, is this an educated guess, or have you learned it through experimentation, digging into game data, or some other means?
    Yeah, I meant for one of those to be damage to health. I should have proofread better.

    A lot of this was figured out in the first game. They pretty much brought over damage calculation systems from the first game. Marcostyle did a series of vids that were well made about the math behind damage in the Division.

    As for crit. It is a multiplier. Pretty much every shot you take has a chance of being critical. The probability is multiplied by the damage and then added to 1 to create a damage multiplier that applies over every shot taken. So every shot taken there is an x chance of it being critical and then hitting for y value more. Every weapon shot has a chance to critical though. Even headshots. You might not include headshot on non headshots or damage to armor on red targets, but Crit applies as a percentage on all hits.

    Originally Posted by CategoryTheory Go to original post
    I'm not really clear on what you're trying to say with that. If you mean that you should generally add to your currently smaller multipliers before the larger ones, yes (though in high-damage-buff builds, TWD seems rarely one of the highest). I don't know if I've ever come right out and said it, but implicitly stated here and in the other thread is the mathematical trueism that (roughly) you're best off balancing all your multipliers, rather than pushing one significantly further than the others. I.e., if you have 60% in buffs to distribute, 20% on each of three multiplicative buffs (1.2 * 1.2 * 1.2 = 1.728) is better 40% on one and 10% each on the other two (1.4 * 1.1 * 1.1 = 1.694), which in turn is better than 30% on each of two (1.3 * 1.3 * 1.0 = 1.690). In other words, aim to increase the lowest buff for whatever particular type of hit you're making. (There's actually a mathematical proof for this, which I will leave as an exercise for the reader.)

    The complexity with the dogs, and the reason for my question, is because the game appears to be changing the equation quite drastically from yours above when you shoot the legs. The damage is no longer one figure, but is divided into two parts that are added together: (0.1 * "non-crit" damage) + ((1+CHD) * base damage), all done against health and ignoring armor. The question is, is what I've stated just there really correct, or are there any other multipliers on the right-hand side besides CHD? For example, does damage to health go on the left side and get multiplied by 0.1, or does it go on the right side for full effect, adding an additional multiplier for CHD? If the former, 10% more CHD in this case is worth more than 30% damage to health in all circumstances; if the latter, bringing your DTH from 0% to 10% will be worth as much as much as adding 15% to 50% CHD, or 20% to 100% CHD.
    Pretty much. As for TWD, that is a tricky one. The multiplier that you often get for on a full red build can often be around 140% (10% Watch Bonus, 15% Specialization Bonus, 90% on an all red core build, 15 on the weapon itself, 10% for brand set bonus like Fenris/Airaldi/Overlord/Sokolov/D+H). Add in talents like Vigilance and Obliterate, and the additive TWD bonus goes up to 190%.

    Because of how high weapon damage can add up on an all red build, it is often the largest multiplier. Critical hits because they are probability based over multiple shots has an overall multiplier that is inherently lower than weapon damage. They are in a sense the least situational type of damage in the game besides weapon damage or talent bonuses.

    You are right that if you can add more damage to targets out of cover, armor, or health; their smaller multipliers would have a greater impact.



    As for the robo dogs and their legs. The robo dogs like the chungi have breakable flake armor. The armor around their legs tends to be pretty easy to break. Once those flakes are broken, you do damage directly to their health. The chungi on Razorback in Dark Hours have no flake armor on their rears. Hence why you can melt them quickly by shooting them in their nether regions. AR's typically destroy these types of targets quickly because of that mechanic.
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  4. #14
    CategoryTheory's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by TimesLostArc Go to original post
    Pretty much every shot you take has a chance of being critical. The [CHD] is multiplied by the [CHC] and then added to 1 to create a damage multiplier that applies over every shot taken.
    That's how you would calculate the expected damage of a shot (i.e., the average damage of a large number of shots), but this is pretty clearly not what the game is doing on a per-shot basis since any single shot is either non-crit, and not multiplied by the CHD multiplier, or crit, with the damage multiplied by the CHD multiplier. Your paragraph after this one is more correct.

    As for TWD, that is a tricky one. The multiplier that you often get for on a full red build can often be around 140% (10% Watch Bonus, 15% Specialization Bonus, 90% on an all red core build, 15 on the weapon itself, 10% for brand set bonus like Fenris/Airaldi/Overlord/Sokolov/D+H).
    As far as I'm aware, none of that affects TWD. My understanding is that "weapon damage" and "total weapon damage" are separate multipliers, and everything in your list contributes to WD, not TWD. (The game states explicitly when something is buffing TWD instead of WD, though this is often a little less clear because print "total" in white text and "weapon damage" in orange text in talent descriptions.)

    As for the robo dogs and their legs. The robo dogs like the chungi have breakable flake armor. The armor around their legs tends to be pretty easy to break.
    This does not appear to match what the reddit poster claims is going on. It could be that there's so little flake armour on the legs that it always vanishes instantly, but regardless, the damage you do after that works very differently from the damage you do after removing a chunga armour plate (or shooting where he has no plate) because it's still significantly reduced: it's divided into "regular" damage and "damage added by CHD multiplier" and the former is reduced by 90%, but not the latter. (At least, as I read his explanation and spreadsheets.)
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  5. #15
    Originally Posted by CategoryTheory Go to original post
    As far as I'm aware, none of that affects TWD. My understanding is that "weapon damage" and "total weapon damage" are separate multipliers, and everything in your list contributes to WD, not TWD. (The game states explicitly when something is buffing TWD instead of WD, though this is often a little less clear because print "total" in white text and "weapon damage" in orange text in talent descriptions.)
    This one is really easy to test. Bonuses on gear, but not talents apply their bonuses to your weapon first. You can remove bonuses to Total Weapon Damage and Specific weapon damage and watch as the values go down on your weapon one by one. They are additive.

    Now Spotter, Intimidate, Glass Cannon, Striker have something called "Amplified Damage. That is its own multiplier. When it says increases though that is additive. Vigilance and Obliterate fall into the latter category.

    Originally Posted by CategoryTheory Go to original post
    This does not appear to match what the reddit poster claims is going on. It could be that there's so little flake armour on the legs that it always vanishes instantly, but regardless, the damage you do after that works very differently from the damage you do after removing a chunga armour plate (or shooting where he has no plate) because it's still significantly reduced: it's divided into "regular" damage and "damage added by CHD multiplier" and the former is reduced by 90%, but not the latter. (At least, as I read his explanation and spreadsheets.)
    I checked on this phenomena. Yeah it is a thing. It surprised me, tbh. I noticed that sometimes I would get these lower values on certain mechanical weak points. Crit damage seems to bypass this entirely.

    I decided to run Bank Headquarters and all Robodog Types seemed to have that occur on their legs. On the robodog in the locked room, I decided to use the Tac-50 on the legs. The result was a 5m Crit Shot, but there was a small turquoise damage number before this. My guess is when the Tac-50 breaks a nearby weakpoint, it registers as turquois. The UGB Minitanks have the same thing happen when you destroy their treads. Small white non crit damage numbers followed by massive orange crit numbers that are not reduced.
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  6. #16
    CategoryTheory's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by TimesLostArc Go to original post
    (Weapon Damage Bonus% +1) x (Damage to Health% + 1) x (Damage to armor% + 1) x (Damage to Targets out of cover% + 1) x (Headshot Damage% +1) x ((Crit Chance x (Crit Damage%)+1) x (Amp Damage multipliers% + 1)
    This turns out to be wrong. Weapon damage bonus, headshot damage bonus and critical hit damage bonus are all additive with each other.
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  7. #17
    Corrupt.be's Avatar Senior Member
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    This doesn't apply to all dogs does it? You have:

    • Sniper Warhound: shoot top red thingy to immobilize it - Shoot it in the butt for straight HP damage
    • Minigun Warhound: Shoot red joints to immobilize it - Shoot... where?! for direct HP damage (don't know)
    • Grenadier Warhound: Shoot red lines on the back (or front of the back part) to immobilize it - Shoot back legs for direct HP damage
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  8. #18
    Originally Posted by Corrupt.be Go to original post
    This doesn't apply to all dogs does it? You have:

    • Sniper Warhound: shoot top red thingy to immobilize it - Shoot it in the butt for straight HP damage
    • Minigun Warhound: Shoot red joints to immobilize it - Shoot... where?! for direct HP damage (don't know)
    • Grenadier Warhound: Shoot red lines on the back (or front of the back part) to immobilize it - Shoot back legs for direct HP damage

    Wait what? I knew about the Red parts, but direct damage without armor plates stopping me?! Ingo would be fantastic.
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  9. #19
    I always thought that if you shot them from behind then they didn't have any armor and hence you dealt direct damage I thought you just shot the legs to stop them from dancing round.....
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  10. #20
    If I know they're coming I usually swap to the emp sticky bomb and maybe bullet king and focus on the sniper first if there's more than one since thats has the large aoe pulse which will neuter other puppies. EMP will knock off a chunk of health and down them for a bit and bullet king doesn't need reloads.

    Sniper puppies are the only ones that pose any real threat as the other pair scamper about like a toddler year old chasing butterflies inbetween firing a few shots that do minimal damage compared to the handheld launchers or miniguns.
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