Making the Game More Offensive | Forums

[Tio_Croc]

Making an enitre CCU is useless if option selects are still very strong. Defense is still more optimal than offense. Here goes some suggestions to make the game more offensive and less boring:



Option Selects:

->Every first hit of neutral zone faster than 800ms and with less than 400ms GB vulnerability should count as a light parry.

->It should be added more 400ms GB vulnerability on the first instants of every side dodge heavy attack.

->It should not be able to back step parry.

->Crushing Counters should not work on back stepped lights.

->All heroes should have no guard while dodging, exceptions being deflect heroes, nobushi and tiandi. however, all heroes have no guard when back dodging.

That will nerf defense in all heroes, amking attack more advantageous.



Conq rework:

->All superior blocks should be removed, except for the full block.

->Chain bash should be feintable and guarantee side heavy.

->Side heavy opener damage increased to 24. Top heavy opener damage increased to 27.

->Unblockable should be accessed after the slightest charge (unblockabe after flicker). Damage decreased to 32.

That would make Conq have a strong, yet healthy kit.



Shinobi's rework:

->Kick should be also accessed after a regular dodge.

->Double dodges should be always into the opponent (back double dodge removed). They cost no stamina. Have no i-frames nor GB vulnerability.

->Kick after double dodge ahs Hyper Armor.

-> Guranteed light damage reductin to 2 (from 4).

->Guaranteed light chains to heavy finisher (or sickle rain heavy).

->Heavy finisher should be unblockable. Sickle rain deals 1 + 2 ticks of 1 bleed damage per light. Total damage is 33.

->Ranged heavies only accessible after a kick.

So basically this will give Shinobi an unblockable and kick mindgame that is similar to charged bahs mindgame (once the opponent has to read the timing of the kick, or if the shinobi will delay to GB). This will make the most opitamal strategy to attack, and not to kite. Also he will be more healthy in 4s without easy accessibility to his ranged heavues, yet being viable due to the bashes and pin unblockable.



Black Prior nerf:

->Whiff recovery of chain bash is now 900ms for GB, 800ms for dodge and 700ms for guard.

With the majority of the heroes now having no guard while dodging, it will make his chain mix up unfun. Now he follows the rule of mix ups like Shaolin, and since he has easier accessibility to it, it is justifiably slightly less damaging.



Buff unsafe defense:

->Reflex guard should last forver.

->Deflect heroes can cancel their deflect in ANY part of the move with a dodge.

Unsafe defense is good an healthy for the game. With that I refer to deffensive moves that can be hardly punished. Deflects are one of them, and need to be buffed. With that, deflect heroes can deflect, cancen the recovery witha dodge and deflect the chain Hyper Armor move. Similarly, the opponent can guess, feint the chain Hyper Armor move, hardly punishing the deflect hero. This is a fun mindgame, would make the game look cool and stilish, and would be a healthy implement to the game.



In general I think For Honor is a great game. However, I believe these suggestions would make the game even better. Please, comment bellow if you agreed or disagreed with something; and thank you for reading until the end .

[Tio_Croc]

Additions to Conq's rework

->Chain bash has whiff recoveries of 1000ms for GB, 900ms for dodge, 800ms for guard.

->Damage of the zone attack increased to 14.

[Knight_Raime]

Making an enitre CCU is useless if option selects are still very strong. Defense is still more optimal than offense. Here goes some suggestions to make the game more offensive and less boring:

Option Selects:

->Every first hit of neutral zone faster than 800ms and with less than 400ms GB vulnerability should count as a light parry.

->It should be added more 400ms GB vulnerability on the first instants of every side dodge heavy attack.

->It should not be able to back step parry.

->Crushing Counters should not work on back stepped lights.

->All heroes should have no guard while dodging, exceptions being deflect heroes, nobushi and tiandi. however, all heroes have no guard when back dodging.

That will nerf defense in all heroes, amking attack more advantageous.

The devs are already working on a way to deal with OS's and the rumor is it's input sanitization. That or making parrying as an action have a low priority are the only really proper ways they can address the situation without making the game feel incredibly clunky.

Conq rework:

->All superior blocks should be removed, except for the full block.

->Chain bash should be feintable and guarantee side heavy.

->Side heavy opener damage increased to 24. Top heavy opener damage increased to 27.

->Unblockable should be accessed after the slightest charge (unblockabe after flicker). Damage decreased to 32.

That would make Conq have a strong, yet healthy kit.

The only superior block that's an issue is on his side dodge bashes as they cover the entire length of his dodge. That can be removed. But the zone one needs to be delayed till after the first feint window because as is it's too good of an OS. The changes you propose don't really improve his offense. Nor address some of the dated aspects of his kit.

Shinobi's rework:

->Kick should be also accessed after a regular dodge.

->Double dodges should be always into the opponent (back double dodge removed). They cost no stamina. Have no i-frames nor GB vulnerability.

->Kick after double dodge ahs Hyper Armor.

-> Guranteed light damage reductin to 2 (from 4).

->Guaranteed light chains to heavy finisher (or sickle rain heavy).

->Heavy finisher should be unblockable. Sickle rain deals 1 + 2 ticks of 1 bleed damage per light. Total damage is 33.

->Ranged heavies only accessible after a kick.

So basically this will give Shinobi an unblockable and kick mindgame that is similar to charged bahs mindgame (once the opponent has to read the timing of the kick, or if the shinobi will delay to GB). This will make the most opitamal strategy to attack, and not to kite. Also he will be more healthy in 4s without easy accessibility to his ranged heavues, yet being viable due to the bashes and pin unblockable.

Single dodge mixes have been a popular suggestion and i'm all for it. Giving armor to the kick when it can be accessed from any single dodge seems excessive.

Buff unsafe defense:

->Reflex guard should last forver.

->Deflect heroes can cancel their deflect in ANY part of the move with a dodge.

Unsafe defense is good an healthy for the game. With that I refer to deffensive moves that can be hardly punished. Deflects are one of them, and need to be buffed. With that, deflect heroes can deflect, cancen the recovery witha dodge and deflect the chain Hyper Armor move. Similarly, the opponent can guess, feint the chain Hyper Armor move, hardly punishing the deflect hero. This is a fun mindgame, would make the game look cool and stilish, and would be a healthy implement to the game.

Guard state will likely never be changed due to how the coding of the game is. The devs already refused making any changes to the guard states so that's unlikely. The best you can hope for is a slower decay rate buff. Canceling deflect attacks with a dodge would look incredibly wonky. You'd be better off letting them dodge cancel the recovery of said input. This is what Shaman can do essentially because her recovery is so low.

[Tio_Croc]

The only superior block that's an issue is on his side dodge bashes as they cover the entire length of his dodge. That can be removed. But the zone one needs to be delayed till after the first feint window because as is it's too good of an OS. The changes you propose don't really improve his offense. Nor address some of the dated aspects of his kit.


Superior block on the heavy is also an issue, as he can parry in light timing and superior block heavies. It will give him more bash and unblockable pressure, so it will give him more tools. It is an overall nerf, but he will be more healthy to the game. Conq's current kit is very unhealthy, and the only thing who saved him from getting nerfed to the ground like Shinobi is the fact that he is a Knight; in my opinion.


Single dodge mixes have been a popular suggestion and i'm all for it. Giving armor to the kick when it can be accessed from any single dodge seems excessive.

If it doesn't have armor, opponents will be able to throw lights and interrupt him. The mix up does not work without the armor.


Guard state will likely never be changed due to how the coding of the game is. The devs already refused making any changes to the guard states so that's unlikely. The best you can hope for is a slower decay rate buff. Canceling deflect attacks with a dodge would look incredibly wonky. You'd be better off letting them dodge cancel the recovery of said input. This is what Shaman can do essentially because her recovery is so low.

Yes they can. They already increased the duration, all they need to do is to code to that guard last for 100^10000ms. I don't know much about coding, but I already worked with animation, and from my experience the process does not matters, what matters it what will be the apperence on the cream. As they are able to increase the duration, all they need to do is to increase it to exponetial proportions

[Goat_of_Vermund]

I almost entirely agree with some things here.

1. Zones being a light parry would be a very good change, that would improve offense so much. However, as compensation, I would make them universally cost only 12 stamina. For Black Prior and Gladiator, it is also a simple fix: Gladiator's should be unfeintable and the followup should be a light attack, while Black Prior could just get back the original version where the startup had 400ms gb vulnerability. Also, every zone should chain, and Conqueror needs a full rework.

2. Side dodge attacks should follow this rule: either a heavy parry with 100ms gb vulnerability into the dodge and 10-12 overall damage, or 100ms gb vulnerability 17-20 damage with a light parry punish. Dodge bashes need to work like Conqueror's current side dodge bash (high gb vulnerability on miss, don't chain on miss).

3. GB selects should go.

4. Neutral bashes should be even faster (400ms into the dodge) to be truly unreactable for everyone, but their gb vulnerability must go up (same with BP's chain bash). No bash should chain on miss.

5. Lawbringer's parry punishes need a hard nerf. Probably solvable by just removing the spike.




But if they can deal with this by single input, cool.

[Knight_Raime]

Superior block on the heavy is also an issue, as he can parry in light timing and superior block heavies. It will give him more bash and unblockable pressure, so it will give him more tools. It is an overall nerf, but he will be more healthy to the game. Conq's current kit is very unhealthy, and the only thing who saved him from getting nerfed to the ground like Shinobi is the fact that he is a Knight; in my opinion.

Considering he can't feint normally the superior block on heavy makes up for that a bit. He's meant to be a defensive oriented hero. And from a competitive stand point the only two option selects he has that are issues are his dodge based one and his zone.

If it doesn't have armor, opponents will be able to throw lights and interrupt him. The mix up does not work without the armor.

His kick had armor before and it didn't make the mix up better. Giving him armor again just means he gets to ignore how someone plays. I don't think you realize just how busted it would be to give a bash that's accessible from any dodge direction armor. I can and have given far better suggestions to improve his kit.

Yes they can. They already increased the duration, all they need to do is to code to that guard last for 100^10000ms. I don't know much about coding, but I already worked with animation, and from my experience the process does not matters, what matters it what will be the apperence on the cream. As they are able to increase the duration, all they need to do is to increase it to exponetial proportions

There is a huge difference between adjusting the duration of the decay rate and fundamentally changing how the guard state behaves. The devs can't even remove the "rate match" feature despite it doing actually nothing because of how integral it is to the coding of the game. I severely doubt it would be an easy task for them to alter guard states to that level. Even if they could they do not want to. So asking for it is pointless.

[Tio_Croc]

Yeah, I totally forgot about bash zones lol.

Glad's zone would be still strong around casual games as dodge and parry right after can be hard for new players. Also, you need to dodge on the rigght direction. I think it would be better to make so on whiff he automatically feints wich leads to a 1000ms GB vulnerability. Same for BP, 1000ms GB vul on whiff so you can feint but instead of parry you dodge.

I like your idea, as they can still be used to option select but can be hardly punished. They would work like PK's dodge, right?

I don't think making this game have better neutral bashes is healthy. Unpunishble offense leads to spam because once you don't get punished for doing something you repeat it. Bashes are already really safe as the opponent needs to hard read with a dodge attack or back dodge to GB. I don't think GB vulnerability should go because as I said before, unsafe deffense generates mindgames and those are what makes this game fun. A game where people spam moves is not fun. However, I agree that all bashes should be unreactable.

I think Lawbringer is fine. To do that I think he should have a faster shove and easier accsses to his heavy finishers. But that would take away his signature, which would make the game less diverse; which is bad. 25 damage is not that big of a deal.

[Tio_Croc]

Considering he can't feint normally the superior block on heavy makes up for that a bit. He's meant to be a defensive oriented hero. And from a competitive stand point the only two option selects he has that are issues are his dodge based one and his zone.

Yeah conq should be able to geint his heavies. Need to add that. The hero is unhealthy to the game. It happened to other heroes like Shugoki, where they had their kit entirely chnaged. The way Conq gets away from that just because he's a knight kinda disappoints me. He should be reworked; how is what shoudl be discussed.

His kick had armor before and it didn't make the mix up better. Giving him armor again just means he gets to ignore how someone plays. I don't think you realize just how busted it would be to give a bash that's accessible from any dodge direction armor. I can and have given far better suggestions to improve his kit.

His kick before was not a mix up. Now it is. It has two timings for the kick, and his dodge would lose i-frames, meaning opponents could interrupt his mix ups with lights. Warmonger and Warder have HA on their bash mix up, and this kick mix up would not even be strong as theirs, so I don't think it will be a problem Need testing tho.

There is a huge difference between adjusting the duration of the decay rate and fundamentally changing how the guard state behaves. The devs can't even remove the "rate match" feature despite it doing actually nothing because of how integral it is to the coding of the game. I severely doubt it would be an easy task for them to alter guard states to that level. Even if they could they do not want to. So asking for it is pointless.

If the reflex guard lasted for at least 5 seconds, it would feel like a static guard regardless; and it is a change that, as far as I know, can be done. As I said before, it was a suggestion once I don't understand much about coding, but as they already changed the duration before I imagine they are able to considerably increase it to the point where it feels like a static guard.

[Knight_Raime]

Yeah conq should be able to geint his heavies. Need to add that. The hero is unhealthy to the game. It happened to other heroes like Shugoki, where they had their kit entirely chnaged. The way Conq gets away from that just because he's a knight kinda disappoints me. He should be reworked; how is what shoudl be discussed.

I'm not disagreeing that he needs major changes. I just disagree with removing superior block from his heavies. It would really be a shame if the only two defensive mechanics he gets to keep is FB on zone and FB stance.

His kick before was not a mix up. Now it is. It has two timings for the kick, and his dodge would lose i-frames, meaning opponents could interrupt his mix ups with lights. Warmonger and Warder have HA on their bash mix up, and this kick mix up would not even be strong as theirs, so I don't think it will be a problem Need testing tho.

WM and warden's bashes can't punish anything with the armor. It prevents them from being interrupted after a very long charge time. Double dodge and single dodge are a lot faster. If him trading with his bash was problematic because it had armor before it's definitely going to be problematic if you bring it back on top of single dodges as well. I'll have to disagree about calling a single or double dodge a mix up if the options are the same from both. You'd just never use double dodge. It makes far more sense to have differences between the tools for single and double dodge. Like in my suggestions his single dodge links into the double light or faster kick with no armor. While the double dodge would link into a faster heavy finisher for sickle rain.

If the reflex guard lasted for at least 5 seconds, it would feel like a static guard regardless; and it is a change that, as far as I know, can be done. As I said before, it was a suggestion once I don't understand much about coding, but as they already changed the duration before I imagine they are able to considerably increase it to the point where it feels like a static guard.

I don't believe it's as simple as dialing up a knob. That might be the case for recovery changes but for guards I don't think so. Even if it could last severely longer that only fixes half of the problem.

[Gaser.]

I almost entirely agree with some things here.

1. Zones being a light parry would be a very good change, that would improve offense so much. However, as compensation, I would make them universally cost only 12 stamina. For Black Prior and Gladiator, it is also a simple fix: Gladiator's should be unfeintable and the followup should be a light attack, while Black Prior could just get back the original version where the startup had 400ms gb vulnerability. Also, every zone should chain, and Conqueror needs a full rework.

2. Side dodge attacks should follow this rule: either a heavy parry with 100ms gb vulnerability into the dodge and 10-12 overall damage, or 100ms gb vulnerability 17-20 damage with a light parry punish. Dodge bashes need to work like Conqueror's current side dodge bash (high gb vulnerability on miss, don't chain on miss).

3. GB selects should go.

4. Neutral bashes should be even faster (400ms into the dodge) to be truly unreactable for everyone, but their gb vulnerability must go up (same with BP's chain bash). No bash should chain on miss.

5. Lawbringer's parry punishes need a hard nerf. Probably solvable by just removing the spike.




But if they can deal with this by single input, cool.

these fast zones eat almost half or more then half of your stamina tho, making them a light parry would be rather butchered in the sense of risk and reward.