Rip Gryphon | Forums

[Knight_Raime]

This is 100% a rant. My faith in Ubi after seeing the TG changes is gone now. I thought we moved passed heavy handed nerfs. I thought we stopped caving to crying. But I guess someone at Ubi is still sacking the game because people can't be asked to learn how to play and improve themselves. But before I even get into the change i'm upset about I just have to rant about something else real quick.

I would LOVE to know who decided that dropping these Gryphon changes DAYS before the Dominion series happens. Seriously. Fire them. Do you understand how monumentally garbage this is? Practically EVERY reoccuring team for tournaments was practicing these past few months to have Gryphon on the team. You're literally making character defining changes out of literally no where RIGHT before a HUGE PAID TOURNAMENT was going to happen. Like. If you absolutely had to push these changes through without feedback do it AFTER the tournament. You already banned his T3 for the Tournament and now you're nerfing it? I don't understand.

There's players who swapped off their main specifically to learn and practice Gryphon for this tournament and now you've just disrespected their time investment. I just don't understand how anyone at the company can seriously think pushing changes like these this close to a tournament was a good idea. I can't believe the same people who brought tools to the game to make it more competitive so we can have more tournaments would make this big a blunder. It's just frustrating and sad.


But yeah, lets talk about the gryphon changes themselves now. Or at least just the bash ones. It's very worrying to me. let me just grab the snippet of their reasoning for changing it:

Dev Comment: The previous Back + Guard Break input of 600ms was unreactable for most players outside of high-level play. This meant that Gryphon's Shove was problematic (for different reasons) in both casual and high-level play.

By making Gryphon's Shove a 500ms Dodge Forward Melee, combined with the additional minimum of 300ms spent in the Forward Dodge, the move becomes predictable for most players, while also being unreactable to players at all levels of play.

Gryphon's Shove should now function as a mix-up and opener that is less frustrating to face.

This is baffeling. 300ms into the dodge with a 500ms bash speed is Cent's kick. Do you ever see Cent actually using his kick offensively or defensively in high level play? No. Because it's reactable. There logic is that because it's predictable it's less frustrating. But if something is predictable how can you call it consistent offense? If I know you're going to bash it makes it easier to react to.

Conq, WL, and BP's bash work as "offense" at lower level plays because they can input it so early into their dodge. Heck that's why some top players still eat the bash sometimes. But you're already preventing that by making it 300ms into the dodge. So lets compare it to the TG bashes. At least goki's and Zhanhu's since I didn't play with JJ.

Zhanhu's works because he can flub your reaction to his forward dodge. He has access to a feintable forward dodge heavy. Meaning you can't just react to the dodge forward. Goki's bash deals direct damage, can be done from a side dodge, can be done in chain, and can chain on whiff. Gryphon's new bash won't chain on whiff, isn't accessible mid chain, can't be accessed from side dodge, and has no way to flub your reaction to forward dodge because his dodge forward heavy is slow and unfeintable.

This doesn't make his bash better in high level play. It won't even have the value that Cent's has in terms of gank setups because bash+ light means you can't guarantee his kick. Where as in cent's mix ups you confirm either the knock down with the full charge punch or the pin from his heavy. It's straight up worse in every comparable way to every bash.

Gryphon isn't going to be competitively viable anymore. No teams who are serious about winning will run him. Not just because of this awful change but because he (rightfully) received nerfs everywhere else. Now every other 4th slot flex pick hero is more viable for a team comp. Nobushi, WM, Kensei, BP. This is yet another example of killing a character instead of handling them properly. That's why Raider is no longer taken. That's why Orochi is even worse than he was before. These kinds of changes CAN NOT continue if the game is going to be competitive.

Maybe even worst of all though is the potential impact of the TG changes if this Gryphon nerf is a window into what the devs consider "small" adjustments. I genuinely am worried that the heros that were really good on TG will now be worse because the devs think these kinds of changes are acceptable. What the **** Ubi.

[BlueFlameGR]

1) Gryphos went against CCU changes because he was able to finish with light and go straight for bash. If it was a bash like Tiandi ok. But Gryphon was able to put you in the blender again and again and again and if you went out of stamina even worse. Now he has 3 attacks in front dodge something no other hero have.
2) His side dodge heavies from should be more of counter and less frustrating something i want to see to become universally to the game.
3) His feats get a decent nerf to be less tanky
4) If every pro team supposed to have Gryphon in their teams for the next dominion series, that is one more proof he is Overpower.
5) Also if they want to call themselves pros they need to adapt to the new changes fast or to have a backup plan.

And before close i am pretty sure that you are gonna tell me that i have to just get good at the game and learn counter him but I don't care. I was GrandMaster in Ranked duels in the previous season and i am good to adapt but Gryphon was frustrating, easy and mindless to use. Now you have to think before do. And maybe this is your real problem with the nerf.

[Beyond_Paradox]

Yeah .. sadly it is Hitokiri all over again, may be not to the same degree but similar.

Tbh I was expecting the kick and the dodge nerf (which are not that bad and actually healthy imo) but the shove treatment is kind of weird. A predictable shove means it is going to be dodge alot and needs some sort of utility to compensate that and help him "maintain" his offense instead of this rigid opener approach. And I agree with the dodge forward issue, it should have been made enhanced for the light input and feintable for the heavy. He will sadly suffer and disappear from the scene as Hito did.

The majority is now celebrating as if we invented cancer treatment. I am genuinely sad that we lost another character.

[MrBdur]

This is 100% a rant. My faith in Ubi after seeing the TG changes is gone now. I thought we moved passed heavy handed nerfs. I thought we stopped caving to crying. But I guess someone at Ubi is still sacking the game because people can't be asked to learn how to play and improve themselves. But before I even get into the change i'm upset about I just have to rant about something else real quick.

I would LOVE to know who decided that dropping these Gryphon changes DAYS before the Dominion series happens. Seriously. Fire them. Do you understand how monumentally garbage this is? Practically EVERY reoccuring team for tournaments was practicing these past few months to have Gryphon on the team. You're literally making character defining changes out of literally no where RIGHT before a HUGE PAID TOURNAMENT was going to happen. Like. If you absolutely had to push these changes through without feedback do it AFTER the tournament. You already banned his T3 for the Tournament and now you're nerfing it? I don't understand.

There's players who swapped off their main specifically to learn and practice Gryphon for this tournament and now you've just disrespected their time investment. I just don't understand how anyone at the company can seriously think pushing changes like these this close to a tournament was a good idea. I can't believe the same people who brought tools to the game to make it more competitive so we can have more tournaments would make this big a blunder. It's just frustrating and sad.


But yeah, lets talk about the gryphon changes themselves now. Or at least just the bash ones. It's very worrying to me. let me just grab the snippet of their reasoning for changing it:

Dev Comment: The previous Back + Guard Break input of 600ms was unreactable for most players outside of high-level play. This meant that Gryphon's Shove was problematic (for different reasons) in both casual and high-level play.

By making Gryphon's Shove a 500ms Dodge Forward Melee, combined with the additional minimum of 300ms spent in the Forward Dodge, the move becomes predictable for most players, while also being unreactable to players at all levels of play.

Gryphon's Shove should now function as a mix-up and opener that is less frustrating to face.

This is baffeling. 300ms into the dodge with a 500ms bash speed is Cent's kick. Do you ever see Cent actually using his kick offensively or defensively in high level play? No. Because it's reactable. There logic is that because it's predictable it's less frustrating. But if something is predictable how can you call it consistent offense? If I know you're going to bash it makes it easier to react to.

Conq, WL, and BP's bash work as "offense" at lower level plays because they can input it so early into their dodge. Heck that's why some top players still eat the bash sometimes. But you're already preventing that by making it 300ms into the dodge. So lets compare it to the TG bashes. At least goki's and Zhanhu's since I didn't play with JJ.

Zhanhu's works because he can flub your reaction to his forward dodge. He has access to a feintable forward dodge heavy. Meaning you can't just react to the dodge forward. Goki's bash deals direct damage, can be done from a side dodge, can be done in chain, and can chain on whiff. Gryphon's new bash won't chain on whiff, isn't accessible mid chain, can't be accessed from side dodge, and has no way to flub your reaction to forward dodge because his dodge forward heavy is slow and unfeintable.

This doesn't make his bash better in high level play. It won't even have the value that Cent's has in terms of gank setups because bash+ light means you can't guarantee his kick. Where as in cent's mix ups you confirm either the knock down with the full charge punch or the pin from his heavy. It's straight up worse in every comparable way to every bash.

Gryphon isn't going to be competitively viable anymore. No teams who are serious about winning will run him. Not just because of this awful change but because he (rightfully) received nerfs everywhere else. Now every other 4th slot flex pick hero is more viable for a team comp. Nobushi, WM, Kensei, BP. This is yet another example of killing a character instead of handling them properly. That's why Raider is no longer taken. That's why Orochi is even worse than he was before. These kinds of changes CAN NOT continue if the game is going to be competitive.

Maybe even worst of all though is the potential impact of the TG changes if this Gryphon nerf is a window into what the devs consider "small" adjustments. I genuinely am worried that the heros that were really good on TG will now be worse because the devs think these kinds of changes are acceptable. What the **** Ubi.

Dude, Gryph is stronger than pre nerf LB and he is receiving a smaller nerf. He will be fine.

Honestly, he is overtuned as he currently is. The nerfs are welcome in my eyes.

I don't say this because I have trouble with the hero, personally. I say this because I love the hero design and I played him for 6 reps on release. After that, I realized just how easy he was to play and do well with in any game mode. Too easy.

I seriously feel bad when I win duels as Gryphon. I feel bad for the other guy unless they are also Gryphon. Genuinely. I feel guilty. LOL. No joke.

It is SOOO EASY to beat people with Gryphon so long as you play him consistently. Obviously you need to be familiar with his moveset to make use of his ultra cheese but that should go without saying.

My nephew started playing recently (he's 15) and he bought Gryphon and then told me how much easier Gryphon makes the game. He was laughing because now he gets WAY more kills. Ahahahaha. Too funny.

[Knight_Raime]

1) Gryphos went against CCU changes because he was able to finish with light and go straight for bash. If it was a bash like Tiandi ok. But Gryphon was able to put you in the blender again and again and again and if you went out of stamina even worse. Now he has 3 attacks in front dodge something no other hero have.
2) His side dodge heavies from should be more of counter and less frustrating something i want to see to become universally to the game.
3) His feats get a decent nerf to be less tanky
4) If every pro team supposed to have Gryphon in their teams for the next dominion series, that is one more proof he is Overpower.
5) Also if they want to call themselves pros they need to adapt to the new changes fast or to have a backup plan.

And before close i am pretty sure that you are gonna tell me that i have to just get good at the game and learn counter him but I don't care. I was GrandMaster in Ranked duels in the previous season and i am good to adapt but Gryphon was frustrating, easy and mindless to use. Now you have to think before do. And maybe this is your real problem with the nerf.

Grats on failing basic reading comprehension. I literally said he got nerfs that he deserved. I'm only complaining about the bash change. If only you were a grand Master with reading. Unfortunate.

[Knight_Raime]

Yeah .. sadly it is Hitokiri all over again, may be not to the same degree but similar.

Tbh I was expecting the kick and the dodge nerf (which are not that bad and actually healthy imo) but the shove treatment is kind of weird. A predictable shove means it is going to be dodge alot and needs some sort of utility to compensate that and help him "maintain" his offense instead of this rigid opener approach. And I agree with the dodge forward issue, it should have been made enhanced for the light input and feintable for the heavy. He will sadly suffer and disappear from the scene as Hito did.

The majority is now celebrating as if we invented cancer treatment. I am genuinely sad that we lost another character.

Can't believe I forgot to slap hitokiri up there as another character they gutted. Though I guess I did forget nobushi too.

But yeah. I'm not against the idea of changing the bash. I just think they did a poor job of it.

[MCBooma16]

I think this is the one time I'm going to disagree with ye here, Raime.

Personally, I didn't like the kick damage. Too easy to get to the mixup and even gives frame advantage. 28 was a lot, and I'm glad it's now weaker than Valkyrie's at 24dmg.

His variable side dodge timings helped him option select and counter a lot of characters on the roster, and was generally very unhealthy and frustrating to fight.

I don't like Gryphon's bash. It has no animation and is cheesy at every level of play. Being able to continue chains after a missed or whiffed bash is stupid, and it's another reason why his OOS pressure was so powerful and frustrating. For console players it's multiple reads after the other. Dodge the bash, block the side he's going to throw the light, and read the multiple options he has from there, which are a kick, undodgeable light, heavy, or heavy GB. Stupid.

I correctly read Gryphon less than 50% of the time in this regard. It doesn't make me a bad player, it's all luck at that point since he has ALL of these tools and versatility and there is nothing I can do about it unless I get a parry.

Turning the bash into a forward bash instead of an instantaneous shove will improve mixup potential in similar ways that other forward bash heroes have, whilst also making the move less frustrating. Having to first dodge forward and THEN bash will have players decide whether or not Gryphon will GB or bash.

IMO his bash was too strong. There was no animation to work with so everyone had to make a hard read for TIMING and no ques. Gryphon's bash is one of the best in the game because the animation is so short.

No character should be punished for dodging a bash, and Gryphon did this frequently to everyone. Yes, he'll no longer be able to keep you hitstunned after a blocked followup light since he won't be able to throw it if you dodge the bash. Big deal. He was overpowered. He's too easy to play because he has offense that trumps the game's fundemental defense. He was just overwhelming, and it's simply not fun to play.

I don't back out of games, but when I want to have some chill matches and I see two high level Gryphons on the enemy team, I leave. I've had enough of overwhelming heroes and I shouldn't have to think so incredibly hard just to make a few reads that Gryphon will most likely be able to come back from.

Hopefully with these changes Gryphon's will learn to use their brains a little more and not rely on the cheese that is his whole kit.

Removing stamina pause is something they need to do for every knight hero.

The fact that players are picking Gryphon for a money prize tournament should probably tell you something about the overall balance of the character. If there are gryphons on every single team for the overpowered cheese hero that he is, I don't blame them.

[Knight_Raime]

Dude, Gryph is stronger than pre nerf LB and he is receiving a smaller nerf. He will be fine.

Honestly, he is overtuned as he currently is. The nerfs are welcome in my eyes.

I don't say this because I have trouble with the hero, personally. I say this because I love the hero design and I played him for 6 reps on release. After that, I realized just how easy he was to play and do well with in any game mode. Too easy.

I seriously feel bad when I win duels as Gryphon. I feel bad for the other guy unless they are also Gryphon. Genuinely. I feel guilty. LOL. No joke.

It is SOOO EASY to beat people with Gryphon so long as you play him consistently. Obviously you need to be familiar with his moveset to make use of his ultra cheese but that should go without saying.

My nephew started playing recently (he's 15) and he bought Gryphon and then told me how much easier Gryphon makes the game. He was laughing because now he gets WAY more kills. Ahahahaha. Too funny.

Please actually read. I'm not against him being nerfed. I said he was rightfully being nerfed. I'm literally only complaining about the bash change. Which is not at all a minor nerf/change. It fundamentally changes him. Feint into neutral bash kind of patched his *** mid chain. Now that's gone because it's a forward bash with a hefty delay sattled to it.

I'm fine with them changing the bash and the premise of said change. (that being reducing frustration and making the bash more viable across the board) The problem is they didn't do enough to make that goal happen.

Also the fact that no one seems to care about the impact of these changes on the tournament besides comp players themselves just goes to show how tone deaf and out of touch the majority of the player base is with the health and understanding of this game.

Its crap like this that legitimately depresses me and makes me want to stop caring about the game.

[Knight_Raime]

I think this is the one time I'm going to disagree with ye here, Raime.

Personally, I didn't like the kick damage. Too easy to get to the mixup and even gives frame advantage. 28 was a lot, and I'm glad it's now weaker than Valkyrie's at 24dmg.

His variable side dodge timings helped him option select and counter a lot of characters on the roster, and was generally very unhealthy and frustrating to fight.

I don't like Gryphon's bash. It has no animation and is cheesy at every level of play. Being able to continue chains after a missed or whiffed bash is stupid, and it's another reason why his OOS pressure was so powerful and frustrating. For console players it's multiple reads after the other. Dodge the bash, block the side he's going to throw the light, and read the multiple options he has from there, which are a kick, undodgeable light, heavy, or heavy GB. Stupid.

I correctly read Gryphon less than 50% of the time in this regard. It doesn't make me a bad player, it's all luck at that point since he has ALL of these tools and versatility and there is nothing I can do about it unless I get a parry.

Turning the bash into a forward bash instead of an instantaneous shove will improve mixup potential in similar ways that other forward bash heroes have, whilst also making the move less frustrating. Having to first dodge forward and THEN bash will have players decide whether or not Gryphon will GB or bash.

IMO his bash was too strong. There was no animation to work with so everyone had to make a hard read for TIMING and no ques. Gryphon's bash is one of the best in the game because the animation is so short.

No character should be punished for dodging a bash, and Gryphon did this frequently to everyone. Yes, he'll no longer be able to keep you hitstunned after a blocked followup light since he won't be able to throw it if you dodge the bash. Big deal. He was overpowered. He's too easy to play because he has offense that trumps the game's fundemental defense. He was just overwhelming, and it's simply not fun to play.

I don't back out of games, but when I want to have some chill matches and I see two high level Gryphons on the enemy team, I leave. I've had enough of overwhelming heroes and I shouldn't have to think so incredibly hard just to make a few reads that Gryphon will most likely be able to come back from.

Hopefully with these changes Gryphon's will learn to use their brains a little more and not rely on the cheese that is his whole kit.

Removing stamina pause is something they need to do for every knight hero.

The fact that players are picking Gryphon for a money prize tournament should probably tell you something about the overall balance of the character. If there are gryphons on every single team for the overpowered cheese hero that he is, I don't blame them.

I'm going to ignore most of this because it's discussing things I didn't touch on at all. And frankly it's ******g frustrating that people can't seem to focus on the specific things being mentioned.

I don't care if he needed to be nerfed or not. I don't care how frustrating he is or is not. These are not what this post is about. It's about the fact that they're making major changes to a hero right before a paid tournament happens. It's disrespectful to the players who've spent months with their team comps and practicing.

It's also about the bash. To which I'll state again. I'm fine with their intentions. I think they did a bad job with it. And I explained why.

[King_of_Xibalba]

the part when you say this cannot be right before an important event for the entire community is totally true. It was a BS move.

You said "rightfully", so I understand that you are in agree with some changes.

I agree with some nerfs too but The bash one I also find it bad handled. No compensation too for him.homever mix potential is there.