Senior Member
The shove changes are stupid. "Unreactable" is really a problem with a move? That is the whole point of having working offense, if it is reactable, it is thrash. Also, Tiandi's same move, and the 500ms chain version where he keeps chaining into hyperarmored bs or 400ms lights is far more problematic, so I hope they will address that as well. It is also funny that this is changed right after Gladiator's fuscina ictus was changed in TG (I assume that means it won't go live).
The damage tweaks are fine I guess, though not really necessary, Gryphon loses 27-30 hp for a missed kick (38 with PK), 28 was a totally justified punish after landing it, but well, not a big difference either. He won't really get to it from neutral ever anyway now, you practically removed his offense, while kept that very irritating dodge heavy almost unchanged. The community would have been satisfied by changing that single move to something more risky (like giving it an enchanced light input, for more risk), while leaving his already quite lackluster offense intact. Now it will be an unviable turtle, just as frustrating to fight against (since after the defensive move, he can kick), but useless without the offense.
I am looking forward for single hero changes coming live though. They can follow by making BP's missed shieldbash vulnerable to dodge attacks, Conqueror's bs defensive options reduced, Warlord crashing charge nerfed, Tiandi's palm strike not chaining after miss, and so on. No bash (aside from Jörm) should deal stamina damage, and bleed should be uncleansable for healing feats, so that would be a healthy change as well.
Member
I'll be brief.
The Gryphon's Shove changes are unnecessary and in my opinion a bad idea. Gryphon doesn't have that good pressure from neutral when it comes to high level play (or even when you know how to play against him), so having a "unreactable" bash is necessary for him to remain competitive. This change would make him much weaker, especially if this new dodge-->shove version can be punished with a GB on miss, but recovery times weren't mentioned in the patch notes so I guess they are unchanged.
The rest of the changes are completely fine, although I would rather see weaker heroes buffed than strong ones nerfed.
Senior Member
Member
I think these changes are a step in the right direction.
He will still be very strong. Frame advantage should be removed from ALL chars. He should have the kick changed to where he cannot throw a heavy unless he lands the kick.
Then he will be balanced. Wish he was getting some gb vulnerability on dodge which should also be put on kensei & tiandi.
Gryph & Warmonger are strong & a lot of the cast of chars are still weak. Id rather you buff the rest of the chars than nerf new ones into the ground.
Btw id rather character balance than have 2 new ones this year. Id pay for a DLC pack of maps, executions & other content for the current cast if balancing is included rather than pay for new chars. Most of the ppl i talk to feel the same.
Junior Member
Member
I would propose a small change:
Veteran's Kick and Slash:
-Kick Follow-up damage has been reduced to 25 (from 24), same damage as a Kensei GB.
The rest of his changes seem fair to me.
And as for his "Side Dodge Attacks (Soul Cleaver)" since it's identical to Kensei's in both damage and speed, why don't you nerf Kensei's as well?
Senior Member
Member
So, I played around with the changes for one, one and a half hours or so and I can only repeat my original opinion. All the changes are good IMO, except for the shove changes. It took away a lot of neutral/chain pressure (you can't feint into it directly, plus it is punishable on miss with a GB) and mix-up potential from Gryphon. It is my opinion, but I feel like his kit can be easily shut down/countered, at least when it comes to high-level play.
He is less "spamy" for sure, but considering the upcoming TG changes (Hito, Zhanhu, Gladiator), I think that he is noticeably weaker that before.
IMO he should get his "old" shove back and just give more GB vulnerability to his dodge attacks.
Junior Member
A feedback post testing the changes.
Overall the changes are fine. The input delay removal on the dodge attack didn't really change much as it is still a good escaping tool and only made the character feel clunky as others have dodge attacks that can be gracefully delayed (ehm .. Kensei!).One may say that we should make it universal and people will adapt but I really don't think this is the correct approach. I would rather have more GB vulnerability on starting frames or shifting the iframes to earlier window in the dodge attack itself and reducing them so they require a read on what to dodge and get punished on a bad one. The second proposed fix is the preferable one for me as this can be applied as a universal fix to all dodge attacks and much healthier to the game. We may however need adjusting some dodge attack speeds as well as looking at their punishes.
For the shove ...
Congratulations, you just made the worst 500 ms bash in the game. Mediocre range, forced delayed, can't be chained from on whiff, no supporting tools as other dodge forward options are no help and relatively bad recovery. What makes matters worse is that it is NOT un-reactable on high level as stated by the comp players already. The force delay basically gives the mix-up away which makes it much easier to somewhat react to. The shove must have another look for the character's effectiveness. Otherwise, your just burying him alive similar to what has happened to Hito before.
