TG Aramusha Rework Feedback - why it is unfortunately a big NO NO | Forums

[Knight_Raime]

Yeah, I really do, appreciate the relativation. You never know what type of feedback would be carried over to the Dev's desk, so for me it is quite important to distinguish here. You did that quite nicely on those extended thoughts on the TG too I may point out here.




You pointed out his issues with his chain really well. However what you suggested about the extending the softfeint into ring the bell to combo heavies won't be a good solution. In fact, I am quite certain that it would be downright broken. Reason being is that the moment you use it after a landed or a blocked heavy, your opponent is in medium hit stun reaction, as a result they cannot dodge, making this move guaranteed, each and every time.

Also I really don't want aramusha's kit to revolve around ring the bell more than necessary.

I appreciate you mentioning my thread. I'm not a stranger to low traffic threads as I tend to be rather wordy. But it's nice to know some people got to read it before it was pushed off the front page.
You're saying medium hitstun from a landed/blocked heavy will essentially guarantee the soft feint into ring the bell self confirming it? Interesting. I didn't think of that. It probably wouldn't fly then. I didn't think of that.

I suppose we should just move my idea from chain heavies to both heavy openers and heavy finishers...but if I make his heavy finishers unblockable that's an unblockable that soft feints into an unblockable...hmm. I wonder if that's too much. NGL. i'm kind of struggling to see how we make his chains better. Finisher wise unblockables are the easy answer. But I would feel kind of bad just leaving him with no buffs to the regular chains. Since regular 500ms lights don't do much and soft feinting into deadly lights isn't strong enough on it's own.

[Klingentaenz3r]

I appreciate you mentioning my thread. I'm not a stranger to low traffic threads as I tend to be rather wordy. But it's nice to know some people got to read it before it was pushed off the front page.
You're saying medium hitstun from a landed/blocked heavy will essentially guarantee the soft feint into ring the bell self confirming it? Interesting. I didn't think of that. It probably wouldn't fly then. I didn't think of that.

I suppose we should just move my idea from chain heavies to both heavy openers and heavy finishers...but if I make his heavy finishers unblockable that's an unblockable that soft feints into an unblockable...hmm. I wonder if that's too much. NGL. i'm kind of struggling to see how we make his chains better. Finisher wise unblockables are the easy answer. But I would feel kind of bad just leaving him with no buffs to the regular chains. Since regular 500ms lights don't do much and soft feinting into deadly lights isn't strong enough on it's own.

Yeah, I feel the same Not so easy to come up with a solution. I think overall it might be a good idea to strengthen the Tempest chain by making it enhanced (Tempest is the light chain, so this means making the light chain enhanced). Note to me would be more than enough if this were the case for chain lights. Opening lights could still be left as normal so that Aramusha has to find his way in first before he can maintain his chain.

This overall would probably lead to that aramusha could sustain his chains a bit better, mixing up between lights and heavies for various timings and the threat of feinting. Of course if he would happen to have enhanced neutral lights he could stop and restart his chain no problem. It would be wonderful from an Aramusha's perspective, but maybe not so much from the opponent's side.

For the chain heavies (Tempest Alternate), we currently have these at 700 ms. I wonder if an acceleration would do us any good? Like for instance it gets faster the deeper aramusha is in the chain, say after 3 guard swaps or so. Example: Opener light top (500 ms), side heavy (700 ms), top heavy (700 ms), side light (500 ms), side heavy (~600 ms). The idea would be that he gets a notch faster if the chain stays alive a bit longer and as a result gets hopefully more overwhelming as the speed and pressure increases.

- What do you guys think?

As for the Finishers I juggled with the following stuff in my mind

-Finisher Undodgable
-Soft feint into Ring the Bell

Pros: Finisher and Softfeint into Ring the Bell together would develop into an extremely effective 50/50 mixup.
Cons: After Ring the Bell, as an opponent you probably right back in the very same mix up (ring the bell into Finisher). A really endless vortex if you cannot manage to interrupt it. Furthermore all other options from the Finisher would be rendered obsolute. The deadly feint, cancel into GB (more or less, as you could also predict an assassin going for a deflect on the finisher as it is easy against an undodgable) and feint into Dodge Attack

As for the finishers with the current TG changes feint cancel into heavy softfeint into ring the bell is already quite easy to do and also very effective. A softfeint in itself would just make it sooner available but from my perspective not grand anything new in particular (at least when added just on its own).


-Finisher unblockable
-Deadly Feint undodgable

Pros: Finishers would cause a reaction, dodge flights into the iframe realm on certain heroes would finally be punished
Cons: Deadly Feints would be more recognizable as deadly feints. In the current system (not TG) it helps with confusing the opponent where you currently are in your chains. With the TG lifts on the other hand it would be a non issue to have the recognizable blue effect on them (thinking out loud here if you are wondering). However them being undodgable means that most heroes with a dodge attack would be restricted in their kit and aramusha does not have to think about his timings as much anymore as well as how and when to use his blade blockade on a whiff or bait certain stuff out... hmm


Further remarks: As for the unblockablable, it strongly promotes feint into GB. I am not really a fan of that on first thought. It is especially true if you add the Softfeint to Ring the bell as dodging would cover two options, if not even three (deadly feint if not made undodgable). However if deadly feints were made undodgable then the outcome would be somewhat equalized. You would have two options against staying in place and two moves for attempting to dodge. The softfeint into Ring the bell can deal with parry attempts of the finisher as well as feint into GB.

I think overall this might be a somewhat good solution we could go for. I would add in fact another option which is a dodge recovery cancel on the finishers or even a dodge cancel out of the finishers. This way we would have a much better roll catching tool in Rushing Wind as well as another tool for aramusha to work with that would let him excel him so much more in anti gank situations.

He could dodge attack out of a heavy finisher whichs windup usually brands him as a big target and leaves him open or he could use it to quickly close gaps / switching targets more effectively with Rushing Wind and swarm his opponents - eventually making him more mobile on the battlefield

[Knight_Raime]

Yeah, I feel the same Not so easy to come up with a solution. I think overall it might be a good idea to strengthen the Tempest chain by making it enhanced (Tempest is the light chain, so this means making the light chain enhanced). Note to me would be more than enough if this were the case for chain lights. Opening lights could still be left as normal so that Aramusha has to find his way in first before he can maintain his chain.

This overall would probably lead to that aramusha could sustain his chains a bit better, mixing up between lights and heavies for various timings and the threat of feinting. Of course if he would happen to have enhanced neutral lights he could stop and restart his chain no problem. It would be wonderful from an Aramusha's perspective, but maybe not so much from the opponent's side.

For the chain heavies (Tempest Alternate), we currently have these at 700 ms. I wonder if an acceleration would do us any good? Like for instance it gets faster the deeper aramusha is in the chain, say after 3 guard swaps or so. Example: Opener light top (500 ms), side heavy (700 ms), top heavy (700 ms), side light (500 ms), side heavy (~600 ms). The idea would be that he gets a notch faster if the chain stays alive a bit longer and as a result gets hopefully more overwhelming as the speed and pressure increases.

So with the lights are you suggesting all of his lights (aside from deadly feint) be enhanced? Or only if he's just doing light chains? I like the former specifically because he can change to any stance now instead of left top right top left etc. If you mean the latter where it only works if you're doing just lights I don't think that will do much since they're 500ms. I did go rewatch the mushu segment and apparently they did toy around with the idea of having his top light be enhanced so his chains can continue but they decided to loosen the infinite chain requirements.

I'm assuming they didn't buff him further chain wise because historically speaking heros who can spam out lights have been a common complaint for average players and they're probably looking to avoid that. Personally speaking I chose the soft feint option to buff his chains specifically to avoid complaints about spammed attacks. And also because Aramusha's chains become interesting specifically because of his deadly feint soft feints. I still think that should be the way to go but i'm not sure what to make his soft feints for his chain heavies. Ring the bell doesn't work because of hit/block stun issues. Soft feint to kick doesn't do anything for Aramusha himself it would be too situational. For all I know simply making his finishers unblockable would be enough to make his overall chains feel good enough.

I'm not really sure of the point on making his chain heavies faster after a certain point. I don't see it making them land anymore than current. And 600ms heavies in general seem excessive. IIRC Centurion is the only hero with them but they are his finishers. More to the point though I think randomly increasing the speed of any attack that deep into the chain would likely be too confusing for an average player since there's no sort of visual que for it. The devs love their simplistic approach to combat. That's often why we see things axed. But yeah to tie this up I think unblockable finishers is the route to go for his chain buffs. We'd have to see if that alone is good enough to warrant Mushu for sticking into his chains. The other problem would be to address how people can seemingly escape his deadly feint/finisher mix ups.

-reads snipped part-

I'm not sure how making his finishers unblockable promotes feint to GB anymore than his deadly feint. Both are 400ms after the attack starts. The person is forced to try and predict block one of two directions, or look to tech a GB if you feint and this is assuming the person you're fighting is capable of reacting to parry flash which not many people can do. We can look to berzerker to see that feint to GB isn't always what you want to do despite having unblockable finishers. I like the idea of unblockable finishers because it will force a reaction out of the opponent. Now that he has BB after any attack regardless of recovery that means someone late dodge attacking won't punish Aramusha. But I also like it because it means he'd have a tool for team fighting that's not just from a defensive stand point (BB.)

Have you considered the idea of potentially making his deadly feints unblockable and his finishers undodgable? Assuming the devs would be cool with giving that gimmick from zhanhu away and the deadly feint light would have lower damage because of it's new found property ofc. Just conceptually how do you think that would work out for Mushu? I think it would make him a much better 1v1er and keep him roughly where he was at in TG as far as team fights go. In other words better than TG overall but still in the same direction the devs seem to be leaning with him.

Finally I agree with the idea of letting him dodge out of finishers. Specifically his forward dodge heavy should be a soft feint from his finishers. Regardless of what they do or do not do with his chains that attack into ring the bell is Mushu's primary way of dealing with people who roll his mix up. Having more access to it is pretty needed imho.