Help with the hero reworks ! | Forums

[AbuZnood]

I hoped they will balance out Berserker a bit, not make him outright broken. This is just ridicoulous. He is only considered weakish because there are better picks in 4v4. If you don't have a bash, it is a gg already, he has hyperarmor on everything, you will never retaliate. It is so cool that the junk will still give you a 60 damage punish if you dare to attack with less than half stamina. Unless you get him with a well timed guardbreak, Zhanhu will completely shut down most offense with a well timed dodge attack. It remains to be seen how Hitokiri's work, I assume from the speed it is a second Gryphon. And hurray, let's also buff Gladiator to make his zone even more broken.

Well, in my opinion hitokiri was pretty strong and annoying af regardless of your pick. But his new dodge attack has nothing in common with gryphon/kensei one, except it chain ( at least it doesn't seem to have extended dodge).

I don't see where speeding up his feinted lights and enhancing the easiest to parry dodge light in the game are making zerk broken, it is litterally just a slight buff, and it is balanced by a damage reduction. Every berserker know the feeling of facing a black prior who decide to just point his guard in a direction without trying anything, and just light you in your off chain time.
All good player know that berserker chains are either light/heavy (making blocking statistically a very sure way of breaking his flow) and if you want to do something else it ll cost a huge stamina drain (allowing bash heroes to punish simply the very essence of zerk kit)
Zerk having neither soft feint nor bash, the normalisation of his lights and the speeding after feint is to "simulate" a guess what mechanic on which side the feint into light will come imo.

For the enhanced property, it ill be fun on dominion, otherwise, who let zerk or orochi dodgies hit the guard seriously ? It is 80 % of the time either a well timed dodge that hit or a bad timed dodge that guet parried. The forward light tho does hit much more often and may be more usefull as enhanced.

Overall I think it is just a little something that is welcome and I don't think zerk player did ask much. Zerk is pretty much perfect in what he is build to be.

Goat, don't you play PK ? I mean, it was the same thing, she even get all her kit updated with new moves and stuff. I don't count the time I fall for that unblockable of her now (and shr is so tiny it's even harder to catch up)

[AbuZnood]

im with goat this time, and also hito dodge attack is an excess in my opinion, considering asassins are still behind on heavies, and this time even flowing in heavies class will be better.

headbutt with damage in shugo is uneeded, 2 damage would be acceptable but ten is a joke when some lights do less.

that make sense. Assassins overall don't have anything unique to call them such except a tinier health pool. The battlefield is surrounded by geriatric chinese officers who dance around slashing 360° for 40 damages

[Goat_of_Vermund]

Well, in my opinion hitokiri was pretty strong and annoying af regardless of your pick. But his new dodge attack has nothing in common with gryphon/kensei one, except it chain ( at least it doesn't seem to have extended dodge).

I don't see where speeding up his feinted lights and enhancing the easiest to parry dodge light in the game are making zerk broken, it is litterally just a slight buff, and it is balanced by a damage reduction. Every berserker know the feeling of facing a black prior who decide to just point his guard in a direction without trying anything, and just light you in your off chain time.
All good player know that berserker chains are either light/heavy (making blocking statistically a very sure way of breaking his flow) and if you want to do something else it ll cost a huge stamina drain (allowing bash heroes to punish simply the very essence of zerk kit)
Zerk having neither soft feint nor bash, the normalisation of his lights and the speeding after feint is to "simulate" a guess what mechanic on which side the feint into light will come imo.

For the enhanced property, it ill be fun on dominion, otherwise, who let zerk or orochi dodgies hit the guard seriously ? It is 80 % of the time either a well timed dodge that hit or a bad timed dodge that guet parried. The forward light tho does hit much more often and may be more usefull as enhanced.

Overall I think it is just a little something that is welcome and I don't think zerk player did ask much. Zerk is pretty much perfect in what he is build to be.

Goat, don't you play PK ? I mean, it was the same thing, she even get all her kit updated with new moves and stuff. I don't count the time I fall for that unblockable of her now (and shr is so tiny it's even harder to catch up)

I did play pk. But I started to play to win some games, and she is useless for 4v4 (bleed cleanse), while she is absolutely destroyed in 1v1 by Berserker. I needed like 2-3 duels against zerks with the new Pk to completely give her up and switch to bp.

Zerk really does not need armor on everything.

[AbuZnood]

I did play pk. But I started to play to win some games, and she is useless for 4v4 (bleed cleanse), while she is absolutely destroyed in 1v1 by Berserker. I needed like 2-3 duels against zerks with the new Pk to completely give her up and switch to bp.

Zerk really does not need armor on everything.

But how is that ? What does he have that make him strong except the gameplay around his uninterruptible stance ? He has good tools but that do not work on themselves (gb deflect, cancel recovery, that s it)

But I can understand that as a pk, berserker is really a bad matchup.

[Csodaszarvas_G]

I hoped they will balance out Berserker a bit, not make him outright broken. This is just ridicoulous. He is only considered weakish because there are better picks in 4v4. If you don't have a bash, it is a gg already, he has hyperarmor on everything, you will never retaliate. It is so cool that the junk will still give you a 60 damage punish if you dare to attack with less than half stamina. Unless you get him with a well timed guardbreak, Zhanhu will completely shut down most offense with a well timed dodge attack. It remains to be seen how Hitokiri's work, I assume from the speed it is a second Gryphon. And hurray, let's also buff Gladiator to make his zone even more broken.

At first I liked Zanhu's changes, but on a second thought, Zanhu's recovery cancels could (probably will) turn out quite problematic. Once the people realize what Zanhu can really do with dodge recovery cancels after every single of his/her moves, they will jut non-stop enhanced dodge attacks --> unblockable everyone. And you can just only guess the direction of his/her dodge attacks. At least they are 500 ms, but they should still give you a light parry, considering how viable they are now.

headbutt with damage in shugo is uneeded, 2 damage would be acceptable but ten is a joke when some lights do less.

This is also true. The same goes for Aramusha's soft-feint Ring the Bell. An extremely fast soft-feint bash which deals 12 damage by itself and blinds (if I know it right). Not cool. And the devs should remove Rocksteady from Shugoki and Aramhusha and any other Hero who has it.

[Knight_Raime]

They are really good changes (most of them) IMO. The only thing I can't comprehend is why Hito needed a 600 ms heavy side dodge attack.

With how prominent bash based offense is not having a dodge attack to punish it is considered lacking a basic tool and thus is a design problem and no longer an "acceptable character weakness." Every character needs a dodge attack or equivalent.

I hoped they will balance out Berserker a bit, not make him outright broken. This is just ridicoulous. He is only considered weakish because there are better picks in 4v4. If you don't have a bash, it is a gg already, he has hyperarmor on everything, you will never retaliate. It is so cool that the junk will still give you a 60 damage punish if you dare to attack with less than half stamina. Unless you get him with a well timed guardbreak, Zhanhu will completely shut down most offense with a well timed dodge attack. It remains to be seen how Hitokiri's work, I assume from the speed it is a second Gryphon. And hurray, let's also buff Gladiator to make his zone even more broken.

Berzerker even with these adjustments is still behind his competition in 4's. They are good QoL but the other assassins offer more in almost every way for 4's. Glad is looking to probably replace centurion as the defacto ganker even if his zone getting the ability to chain doesn't make it out of TG. Nuxia traps are still insane because they can trap 2 of 3 guard directions and her hitstun capabilities prevent dodges on a number of her attacks as a way to escape damage. Plus caltrops are still busted and she has access to a weaker corruption. Nobushi being in the meta means pk's difficulty of starting doesn't hold her back in 4's as much as it normally would. Her feats hurt her more in 4's than difficulty getting bleed going. Shaman is shaman. Between pk and zerk you can argue for who is weaker in 4's. But my point is Zerk hasn't really changed. He's just allowed to do what he was already doing a bit easier. He still suffers greatly for not having a strong way to open someone externally. And still suffers very poor reach and trajectories.

In order for hito's dodge attack to be comparable to Gryphon's she'd need to have as huge of an input window as his. And while I don't frame test myself it doesn't feel anywhere near as generous as Gryphon's. Not to mention she herself doesn't move very much with the dodge where as Gryphon does.

im with goat this time, and also hito dodge attack is an excess in my opinion, considering asassins are still behind on heavies, and this time even flowing in heavies class will be better.

headbutt with damage in shugo is uneeded, 2 damage would be acceptable but ten is a joke when some lights do less.

Won't touch on most of this here because I did with the above comments. However I don't see how 10 damage for his headbutt is excessive. That's less than every bash out there that guarantees damage. And you're looking at getting a heavy for pretty much every hero except 2 if you properly dodge it since it has butt recovery on whiff. They couldn't do headbutt into light because Goki has no light finisher. So this was the compromise.

[King_of_Xibalba]

I see that the way you put it Raime, the devs just replaced the follow attack after a bash and they just give the bash the damage.
I still think 5 would be at least more balanced, cause warlord will still need an actual attack with a weapon, 10 for a mere headbutt is too much for me.Also warlord can`t use the headbutt from side dodges.
You are right on the heavy part tough, im not against Shugo rework nor the headbutt only the damage. Shugo is ok in general.

what is your opinion about glad?

[MrBdur]

I haven't played in a couple weeks but I watched the warrior's den and liked what I saw.

The only problem in my opinion is Zerk.

He needs to less viable in duels but more viable in 4's.

He needs to have HA removed from lights or have his heavy HA start a little later.

I don't know how to fix him in 4's. I just know his armor needs some tweaks in the nerfing direction.

Keep giving him more group fight tools and NERF THE DAMN ARMOR. My god.

Hyper Armor has been breaking this game through overuse for way too long now.

Hyper Armor should never have an immediate start up. It should always wait to activate until a hero is actually launching an attack. I'm mostly looking at Raider and Zerk here.

Both Raider and Zerk get instant HA on the press of an attack. Both of them should have later starting HA (Zerk, 100ms to heavies, Raider probably 200 because the windup for his heavies is slow yet he gets HA early.

Take a look at Shugo heavies, Warlord heavies, Warmonger, Jorm. All good timing for HA activation.

HA should follow it's own set of rules. No early startup. That's how we got hito "heby on red" when that hero first dropped. She could have been more easily fixed by just delaying the HA on the heavy opener. NGL though, I have been asking for hito to get HA on chained heavies for a long time. Well done.

[Knight_Raime]

I see that the way you put it Raime, the devs just replaced the follow attack after a bash and they just give the bash the damage.
I still think 5 would be at least more balanced, cause warlord will still need an actual attack with a weapon, 10 for a mere headbutt is too much for me.Also warlord can`t use the headbutt from side dodges.
You are right on the heavy part tough, im not against Shugo rework nor the headbutt only the damage. Shugo is ok in general.

what is your opinion about glad?

If you're going to lower the damage on goki's headbutt you'd need to make it safer recovery wise on whiff which I don't think anyone wants. Since you can link into his heavies from head butt I could see the argument of lowering its damage if his mid chain mix up was better. But atm it does no stamina damage. It doesn't blind. It doesn't pause stamina. It's just a 10 damage bash with poor follow up options. It would need significant adjustments to compensate for lower damage.

Far as glad goes buffing his toe stab was dumb and they shouldn't go through with that damage buff. The zone being able to chain I don't have a personal problem with it but I can't debate that it is one of the things that makes him over tuned on TG. Glad's damage profile is too high on TG and that needs to be toned down. And finally because he has 700ms opening heavies that adds to his defensive capabilities because you can feint and parry/block a light on a wrong read. Which isn't possible for any heavy slower than 700ms.

I love the flow they gave him. I agree with the skewer changes and dodge attacks. He just needs number adjustments for the most part. As is he's going to replace Centurion as the defacto ganker. And probably still will even if they reign in his damage profile. That's how big his flow changes and dodge buffs effect him.

[Big__Man822]

im with goat this time, and also hito dodge attack is an excess in my opinion, considering asassins are still behind on heavies, and this time even flowing in heavies class will be better.

headbutt with damage in shugo is uneeded, 2 damage would be acceptable but ten is a joke when some lights do less.

may i suggest a rework to berserker as in any sane mans opinion someone with a reflex guard should absolutely not have ******g hyperarmor.