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  1. #1
    Robert-of-Hague's Avatar Member
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    Bugs in software are “normal”.

    Having the kind of troubles we had is of course a big problem for us customers but for the developers as well.

    I have been in the ICT-business for 40 years (now retired) and about 10 years of those 40 as a software engineer.
    If there is one thing I learned in all those years is that there is no such thing as bug-free software.
    Even in a small software module, let’s say 100 lines of coding, there is a high probability of a bug. Some bugs can be found with intensive testing, but there are bugs that can only be found in the field.

    If you consider the amount of coding in a game like Div-2 in combination with the amount of coding of the different operating systems of all the platforms this game runs on, then it will be a miracle of galactic proportions if this will ever be bug free.

    And to make it even worse: every time a bit of software is changed or added, new bugs are introduced. Testing doesn’t solve this. Even with intensive testing you can’t find all the bugs. The only possibility for a software product to become even near a bug free situation is not to change anything, ever. No hardware changes and no software changes.

    So people, get used to it.
    Welcome in the world of ICT.
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  2. #2
    echolecter's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Robert-of-Hague Go to original post
    Even in a small software module, let’s say 100 lines of coding, there is a high probability of a bug. Some bugs can be found with intensive testing, but there are bugs that can only be found in the field.
    I can only agree that you'll most likely find 'bugs' in software, or better said 'unexpected situations' that weren't taken into account by programmers. But if someone as programmer cannot write 100 lines of code without having a 'bug' then I think they better of finding another job for him/herself. From my experience as programmer for over 30 years I can say that in today' world there very little real programmers left. By that I mean that most of the people writing code are only script-masters, using predefined code/modules and not knowing what is actually happening to make stuff work on system levels.

    The only problem this industry has is that everyone thinks he is right and their methods are only ones that (can) work. It needs an industry standard just like you see in manufacturing and other industries were things made in separate places need to work together. As for the resent crash issues we had with this game. I myself haven't seen any product crash in a very, very long time. It all depends how you design a product, write your code, and make sure to cover most of situations that can occur. Use of the term, 'Make it idiot proof' is something I strongly believe in.
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  3. #3
    Robert-of-Hague's Avatar Member
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    A bug can be a situation you can not possiblly think of like "at the first day of specific month in combination with specific hardware with a specific version driver and a specific version of a specific operating system the bug becomes visible.

    And don't think this is a imaginairy example, because I saw a bug like this.

    Ik you can avoid this type of bugs you are probably the most intelligent person of the univers.
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  4. #4
    As1r0nimo's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by echolecter Go to original post
    I can only agree that you'll most likely find 'bugs' in software, or better said 'unexpected situations' that weren't taken into account by programmers. But if someone as programmer cannot write 100 lines of code without having a 'bug' then I think they better of finding another job for him/herself. From my experience as programmer for over 30 years I can say that in today' world there very little real programmers left. By that I mean that most of the people writing code are only script-masters, using predefined code/modules and not knowing what is actually happening to make stuff work on system levels.

    The only problem this industry has is that everyone thinks he is right and their methods are only ones that (can) work. It needs an industry standard just like you see in manufacturing and other industries were things made in separate places need to work together. As for the resent crash issues we had with this game. I myself haven't seen any product crash in a very, very long time. It all depends how you design a product, write your code, and make sure to cover most of situations that can occur. Use of the term, 'Make it idiot proof' is something I strongly believe in.
    You don't understand how coding process works.
    You can write 100 lines of code perfectly, but somewhere in another component, that you don't even know about, there will be a thing, that can use your code in unpredictable way.
    That is what happens most of the times.
    Plus, different situations, where things can't be easily predicted due to possibilities of working systems. Just like Pestilence+True patriot+Incoming repair thing was in TU8.
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  5. #5
    echolecter's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Robert-of-Hague Go to original post
    A bug can be a situation you can not possibly think of like "at the first day of specific month in combination with specific hardware with a specific version driver and a specific version of a specific operating system the bug becomes visible.

    And don't think this is a imaginary example, because I saw a bug like this.

    Ik you can avoid this type of bugs you are probably the most intelligent person of the universe.
    When programmers are using modules from others containing bugs it simply means those people messed up and didn't think of possible errors that might occur. It isn't rocket science to write robust code than can handle a beating and cope with errors without crashing. The problem is just that most programmers only focus on the how-it-should-work part, and not about possible failures, this also applies to testing. Anyone that has knowledge of how systems work (through experience) can actually predict what can go wrong. Knowing the potential pitfalls is what separates the amateurs from the professionals. The art of programming is to divide your million lines of code into smaller manageable blocks that are fully resistant to failures on whatever level they occur.

    Originally Posted by As1r0nimo Go to original post
    You don't understand how coding process works ... Just like Pestilence+True patriot+Incoming repair thing was in TU8.
    At this point I am just going to ignore any of your comments, it's not the first they completely miss the mark.
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  6. #6
    hyper---sniper's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Robert-of-Hague Go to original post
    Having the kind of troubles we had is of course a big problem for us customers but for the developers as well.

    I have been in the ICT-business for 40 years (now retired) and about 10 years of those 40 as a software engineer.
    If there is one thing I learned in all those years is that there is no such thing as bug-free software.
    Even in a small software module, let’s say 100 lines of coding, there is a high probability of a bug. Some bugs can be found with intensive testing, but there are bugs that can only be found in the field.

    If you consider the amount of coding in a game like Div-2 in combination with the amount of coding of the different operating systems of all the platforms this game runs on, then it will be a miracle of galactic proportions if this will ever be bug free.

    And to make it even worse: every time a bit of software is changed or added, new bugs are introduced. Testing doesn’t solve this. Even with intensive testing you can’t find all the bugs. The only possibility for a software product to become even near a bug free situation is not to change anything, ever. No hardware changes and no software changes.

    So people, get used to it.
    Welcome in the world of ICT.
    lol US customers ? what about the rest of the world, we ALL pay for the game and ALL have problems, BUGS IS JUST BUGS , but game breaking bugs should not happen, and to have the same bugs from the start and they fix the bugs where you get a little extra ?..

    This game is bug ridden but a lot of the bugs are ok and just a little annoyance , But the big bugs should not happen , and could be solved with testing , it is sloppy coding , no testing , and players saying it does not happen as they have never gotten to the part that the bugs infest.. Should we accept bugs ?.. NO we pay to play not to test , we should accept little bugs but some of the bugs are game breaking, where you can not continue in your journey , do they fix them ?. Sometimes but most bugs they they fix is when you get an extra point, if you loose points or playtime it is marked as fix for later date..
    Every game has a bug or 2 , but this games beat them all (almost) . Just because someone has been in the know for years does not make them an expert , The thought of quick profits and fast release is the name of the day , quality comes last .. Release let the players test and hope we can do some quick fixes..
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  7. #7
    dagrommit's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by echolecter Go to original post
    I can only agree that you'll most likely find 'bugs' in software, or better said 'unexpected situations' that weren't taken into account by programmers. But if someone as programmer cannot write 100 lines of code without having a 'bug' then I think they better of finding another job for him/herself. From my experience as programmer for over 30 years I can say that in today' world there very little real programmers left. By that I mean that most of the people writing code are only script-masters, using predefined code/modules and not knowing what is actually happening to make stuff work on system levels.
    What's funny is that you're implicitly admitting that programs are far more complex now than 30 years ago. As a former QA lead, I can assure you that programmers from the last century were just as prone to writing buggy code as today, even if they owned the entire code base for a given program.

    Yes, a lot of modern development is reliant on libraries and modules produced by others. This is a *good* thing from a productivity and programmer perspective. It allows them to focus on the problem they're trying to solve, instead of recreating the wheel. That comes with risk of course as they're reliant on the work of others to be solid. Just as others are reliant on theirs.

    The only problem this industry has is that everyone thinks he is right and their methods are only ones that (can) work. It needs an industry standard just like you see in manufacturing and other industries were things made in separate places need to work together.
    There are a lot of snake oil peddlers, but you're deluding yourself if you think that's the only problem. Or that a standardized process can work across different problem spaces.

    Originally Posted by hyper---sniper Go to original post
    lol US customers ? what about the rest of the world, we ALL pay for the game and ALL have problems, BUGS IS JUST BUGS , but game breaking bugs should not happen,
    Exactly how many applications or games have you shipped? How many modern games can you list that never required a patch?

    A modern AAA game is worked on by hundreds of people. It is effectively impossible to ensure such a beast is 100% bug free** and release on a reasonable timeframe, especially when that game needs to run on the variety of hardware and software they do now.

    But the big bugs should not happen , and could be solved with testing , it is sloppy coding , no testing , and players saying it does not happen as they have never gotten to the part that the bugs infest..
    Nonsense. People have periodically reported the fire room in Fed Bunker being bugged, and unable to proceed in the mission. That happened to me once, but has never happened again. Point being, bugs that don't happen consistently are always tough to solve, especially in a game with as many complex systems as this.

    ** Note that QA may have caught many of the bugs in the game, but management may have decided they weren't important enough to fix.
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  8. #8
    Sircowdog1's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by echolecter Go to original post
    At this point I am just going to ignore any of your comments, it's not the first they completely miss the mark.
    Seems like there's a lot of that going around. People who are just now coming into the forums to make excuses for Ubi/Massive without knowledge of the full history of just how inexcusably sloppy the development and implementation of this specific game has been.

    Sure, in a general textbook sense, some of what they're saying is accurate. Bugs happen. No big deal. But the repeated failures of both the actual code of this this game and the overall design theory......it's happened so often and so consistently that "bugs happen" doesn't work as an excuse anymore.
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  9. #9
    Originally Posted by dagrommit Go to original post
    What's funny is that you're implicitly admitting that programs are far more complex now than 30 years ago.
    That's because they are.
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  10. #10
    dagrommit's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Sircowdog1 Go to original post
    Seems like there's a lot of that going around. People who are just now coming into the forums to make excuses for Ubi/Massive without knowledge of the full history of just how inexcusably sloppy the development and implementation of this specific game has been.
    The OP has been around longer than you have, and was posting in the Division forums last year.

    Sure, in a general textbook sense, some of what they're saying is accurate. Bugs happen. No big deal. But the repeated failures of both the actual code of this this game and the overall design theory......it's happened so often and so consistently that "bugs happen" doesn't work as an excuse anymore
    I suggest you read the Destiny patch notes. Or the Warframe patch notes. Those teams have been doing this for longer than Massive, but they face the same problems.

    Originally Posted by III_Hammer_III Go to original post
    That's because they are.
    Right - that's my point. He was claiming "real programmers" no longer exist, while ignoring that modern practices have allowed for huge improvements in productivity. That comes with a parallel increase in complexity. And with higher complexity comes a higher risk of bugs.
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