For the love of god | Forums

[MrBdur]

Someone please inform me how they consistently deal with Raiders in duels. They always slap me silly.

Much appreciated!!

Preferably diamond level raiders as thats where I sit.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

Someone please inform me how they consistently deal with Raiders in duels. They always slap me silly.

Much appreciated!!

Preferably diamond level raiders as thats where I sit.

Raider's fury is almost useless, I actually think a reaction light beats it. It is also optionselected very well (the same optionselect Barak presented against PK in his last video easily works against all the moves he has), and he doesn't really have a neutral gameplay if you are near matching their guard. If they start to whiff from a distance to get the armor, I usually back away. It might not apply for all of them, but they really like to soft feint their heavy finisher into a Storming Tap, and if that misses, they almost definetely follow it up with a hyperarmored heavy. Their offense is not that bad, but he worst part can be beaten if you decide when you want to take a risk (like going for a top parry). I always try to play by the "never use dodge attacks" rule against them, it just doesn't worth it with the risk of having an extremely bad trade.

The greatest weakness Raider has is the very bad defense. His neutral zone is unusable for optionselecting, his dodge attack is a light, he doesn't have the possibility for bash optionselects, so it is really predictable: they either dodge, parry normally, block, or stay idle. They will have a very hard time defending themselves against any strong mixups.


The matchup also depends a lot in the context of spacing. With BP for example, I always try to stay out of guardbreak range, that way, Bulwark Counter is a quite safe option against their main mixup (feint into light still beats it though, but making their main mixup far riskier doesn't hurt).

Are you playing your Kensei? I think it would worth a try in training mode to keep your guard on top, and superior dodge into their heavy on parry timing works with reaction and beats guardbreak attempts. If it does, then the only possible thing they can ever do to you is the neutral zone, which is not the greatest tool in itself. If it doesn't, you can still do what I do, and try to space out of guardbreak range. I think you have the range advantage with the lights anyway, so it doesn't hurt to get rid of one of their main tools.

[MrBdur]

Raider's fury is almost useless, I actually think a reaction light beats it. It is also optionselected very well (the same optionselect Barak presented against PK in his last video easily works against all the moves he has), and he doesn't really have a neutral gameplay if you are near matching their guard. If they start to whiff from a distance to get the armor, I usually back away. It might not apply for all of them, but they really like to soft feint their heavy finisher into a Storming Tap, and if that misses, they almost definetely follow it up with a hyperarmored heavy. Their offense is not that bad, but he worst part can be beaten if you decide when you want to take a risk (like going for a top parry). I always try to play by the "never use dodge attacks" rule against them, it just doesn't worth it with the risk of having an extremely bad trade.

The greatest weakness Raider has is the very bad defense. His neutral zone is unusable for optionselecting, his dodge attack is a light, he doesn't have the possibility for bash optionselects, so it is really predictable: they either dodge, parry normally, block, or stay idle. They will have a very hard time defending themselves against any strong mixups.


The matchup also depends a lot in the context of spacing. With BP for example, I always try to stay out of guardbreak range, that way, Bulwark Counter is a quite safe option against their main mixup (feint into light still beats it though, but making their main mixup far riskier doesn't hurt).

Are you playing your Kensei? I think it would worth a try in training mode to keep your guard on top, and superior dodge into their heavy on parry timing works with reaction and beats guardbreak attempts. If it does, then the only possible thing they can ever do to you is the neutral zone, which is not the greatest tool in itself. If it doesn't, you can still do what I do, and try to space out of guardbreak range. I think you have the range advantage with the lights anyway, so it doesn't hurt to get rid of one of their main tools.

I just get ruined because his hyper armored high damage heavies can be soft feinted to 2 separate options or just hard feinted. I get that other heroes have multi soft feint options like Kensei and PK but Kensei can't soft feint from HA and PK has no HA so it just isn't the same issue. With Kensei and PK, you can knock them out of the mix up with proper timing, but Raiders just let it go if you try to interupt, they soft feint to gb if they see a heavy, and they soft feint to storming tap for anything else. I can't seem to find a reliable way to defend myself against Raider's mix up and again, the only issue I have is that he can choose between 2 soft feints OUT OF HYPER ARMORED HEAVIES. I feel like it's just a bit too oppressive, especially considering the fact that Raider was fully viable before he ever got Hyper Armor or soft feinted GBs.

I ran a pretty solid Raider before that god buff he got, and the nerf he got after was just dodge gb removal and stun tap to storming tap, leaving him still far stronger than before. Personally I think Raider should lose one of two things:

Either HA needs to go, or he needs to lose soft feinted GBs. His gb is already strong on its own. He doesn't need soft feinted GBs from Hyper Armored heavy attacks.

Can any other hero soft feint out of Hyper Armor? I can't think of any other hero that has this complex. Shugoki soft feinting his heavies to demon's embrace? Not really sure if that would count though since its so slow.

I dunno. I thought it was silly to give Raider HA right from day 1 honestly. It at least needs to be delayed by 200ms. The Hyper Armor activation that is. It should, at the very least, be set to warlord timing.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

I just get ruined because his hyper armored high damage heavies can be soft feinted to 2 separate options or just hard feinted. I get that other heroes have multi soft feint options like Kensei and PK but Kensei can't soft feint from HA and PK has no HA so it just isn't the same issue. With Kensei and PK, you can knock them out of the mix up with proper timing, but Raiders just let it go if you try to interupt, they soft feint to gb if they see a heavy, and they soft feint to storming tap for anything else. I can't seem to find a reliable way to defend myself against Raider's mix up and again, the only issue I have is that he can choose between 2 soft feints OUT OF HYPER ARMORED HEAVIES. I feel like it's just a bit too oppressive, especially considering the fact that Raider was fully viable before he ever got Hyper Armor or soft feinted GBs.

I ran a pretty solid Raider before that god buff he got, and the nerf he got after was just dodge gb removal and stun tap to storming tap, leaving him still far stronger than before. Personally I think Raider should lose one of two things:

Either HA needs to go, or he needs to lose soft feinted GBs. His gb is already strong on its own. He doesn't need soft feinted GBs from Hyper Armored heavy attacks.

Can any other hero soft feint out of Hyper Armor? I can't think of any other hero that has this complex. Shugoki soft feinting his heavies to demon's embrace? Not really sure if that would count though since its so slow.

I dunno. I thought it was silly to give Raider HA right from day 1 honestly. It at least needs to be delayed by 200ms. The Hyper Armor activation that is. It should, at the very least, be set to warlord timing.

I don't play him, but his defense is pretty weak, and I think his offense is not a big deal either, it is basically just the storming tap and guardbreak softfeint with the occassional light attack. The only thing I might find too strong is the bs stampede from 4v4, but Warlord is already far worse with that, so I won't complain about it. I think I was the most active when Raider and Lawbringer were the ez mode heroes, so I find it quite chill to face them, remembering the old times where he could take 50 hp after 50 hp while you could not even see it coming. The way I wrote down works almost consistently against them, generally, the best way to beat them is keeping them on the defensive. They are really weak while they are passive, probably the weakest hero defensively in the entire game (or tied with the ones who lack a dodge attack at least).

I think there is one softfeint from hyperarmor at least, Aramusha's side heavy after a blade blockade can be softfeinted into a light (though it is a quite awful option to choose instead of guaranteed damage), and I guess Highlander's Celtic Curse counts as well. You may count Hitokiri's very stupidly useless fully charged spinkick as well, but nobody uses it anyway because it is thrash.

[MrBdur]

I don't play him, but his defense is pretty weak, and I think his offense is not a big deal either, it is basically just the storming tap and guardbreak softfeint with the occassional light attack. The only thing I might find too strong is the bs stampede from 4v4, but Warlord is already far worse with that, so I won't complain about it. I think I was the most active when Raider and Lawbringer were the ez mode heroes, so I find it quite chill to face them, remembering the old times where he could take 50 hp after 50 hp while you could not even see it coming. The way I wrote down works almost consistently against them, generally, the best way to beat them is keeping them on the defensive. They are really weak while they are passive, probably the weakest hero defensively in the entire game (or tied with the ones who lack a dodge attack at least).

I think there is one softfeint from hyperarmor at least, Aramusha's side heavy after a blade blockade can be softfeinted into a light (though it is a quite awful option to choose instead of guaranteed damage), and I guess Highlander's Celtic Curse counts as well. You may count Hitokiri's very stupidly useless fully charged spinkick as well, but nobody uses it anyway because it is thrash.

Alright, well I appreciate the suggestions man.

[Knight_Raime]

I personally don't get GBed from raider's soft feints often because he doesn't force me to parry hardly ever. The armor for his mid chain heavy is slow so he can't really trade with it without making a read. His heavy finishers however it comes out a lot quicker. So he's more likely to trade into an interrupt attempt. Dealing with his soft feints in general can come down to 3 ways and which way works best depends on the player.
You can either block top and simply react to the sides. Or you can block the sides and react to top. Or if you're good enough at paying attention to animations just pay attention to his feat. He does a noticeable hop for stunning tap.

I don't personally attempt to parry his heavies since his neutral game is weak. meaning even if he finishes with a heavy finisher dealing with his follow ups isn't a problem for me. The only time he really exerts pressure is if he manages to chain into the zone finisher since it's unblockable. But it's about as threatening as orochi's UB mix up to me. Honestly what screws me up the most with raider is his slower than hell chain top lights.

As for heros that can soft feint with armor there is:

Goki's demon embrace, Highlander's keltic curse (fyi armor is way earlier than visually shown,) Aramusha's BB unblockable, Jorm's forward heavy dash attack, JJ can soft feint his armored heavies into sifu stance.

[MrBdur]

I personally don't get GBed from raider's soft feints often because he doesn't force me to parry hardly ever. The armor for his mid chain heavy is slow so he can't really trade with it without making a read. His heavy finishers however it comes out a lot quicker. So he's more likely to trade into an interrupt attempt. Dealing with his soft feints in general can come down to 3 ways and which way works best depends on the player.
You can either block top and simply react to the sides. Or you can block the sides and react to top. Or if you're good enough at paying attention to animations just pay attention to his feat. He does a noticeable hop for stunning tap.

I don't personally attempt to parry his heavies since his neutral game is weak. meaning even if he finishes with a heavy finisher dealing with his follow ups isn't a problem for me. The only time he really exerts pressure is if he manages to chain into the zone finisher since it's unblockable. But it's about as threatening as orochi's UB mix up to me. Honestly what screws me up the most with raider is his slower than hell chain top lights.

As for heros that can soft feint with armor there is:

Goki's demon embrace, Highlander's keltic curse (fyi armor is way earlier than visually shown,) Aramusha's BB unblockable, Jorm's forward heavy dash attack, JJ can soft feint his armored heavies into sifu stance.

Good suggestions. I like "block top, react to sides" and watching the feet is something I wouldn't have thought of.

As for the soft feints, none of them possess multiple options to soft feint out of the Hyper Armored heavy attacks with. JJ doesn't even soft feint into offense. Ara's is just bad. Jorm's is limited by slow speed and single soft feint to gb option. Highlander's might be the best one there and it's only options are: left or right? Goki's is strong too but has more risk to it.

Not only does Raider's mix up with soft feints trump the rest mentioned, he also gets the triple 500ms light chains and a very strong GB.

[Knight_Raime]

Good suggestions. I like "block top, react to sides" and watching the feet is something I wouldn't have thought of.

As for the soft feints, none of them possess multiple options to soft feint out of the Hyper Armored heavy attacks with. JJ doesn't even soft feint into offense. Ara's is just bad. Jorm's is limited by slow speed and single soft feint to gb option. Highlander's might be the best one there and it's only options are: left or right? Goki's is strong too but has more risk to it.

Not only does Raider's mix up with soft feints trump the rest mentioned, he also gets the triple 500ms light chains and a very strong GB.

Ye animation play is something you start to look for eventually. It's why Stunning tap fails to be a good mix up option regardless of hidden indicator, why Nobushi's kick is still reactable for some players, why zhanhu's zone and chain finisher options are not strong mix ups. etc. At least for me it's easier to look for his hop than it is to try and react to seeing an indicator on Raider given i'm on a base xbox one. Pc wise I could just react to the indicators.

Not really trying to argue on wether those things are effective or not. Just answered your question on who has armor on moves that can be soft feinted. IIRC you can also soft feint keltic curse into his kick. So it's either his sides if he soft feints or a bash that you look out for. and that bash can also be soft feinted into another bash. I'll have to disagree about raider's soft feints being threatening purely because as I said, he doesn't encourage you to do anything. You just block or GB if he soft feints to GB. Meaning the only thing you really need to look out for is if you see orange mid chain.

But because it's a 1000ms attack it's not speedy so you shouldn't be trying to parry early. And it has no armor. So unless he managed to land a heavy on you before leading into the mix up you have a very good chance of stuffing him on reaction if he lets it fly. This forces raider to either make a read and go for a regular heavy assuming you will try to interrupt as early as possible to trade with finisher HA or he buffers his feint and looks to parry. Soft feinting into stun tap isn't an option for him since you can just wait to OS him with a zone. All you gotta do is leave your guard up top and that's not an option. Basically his chain finisher mix up is a worse orochi's because at least with orochi's people trying to interrupt with an OS will be forced to trade.
This is because unblockable speed+ 100ms link in time if buffered into, and hitstun from anything in orochi's kit sans one side of his SR.

[MrBdur]

Ye animation play is something you start to look for eventually. It's why Stunning tap fails to be a good mix up option regardless of hidden indicator, why Nobushi's kick is still reactable for some players, why zhanhu's zone and chain finisher options are not strong mix ups. etc. At least for me it's easier to look for his hop than it is to try and react to seeing an indicator on Raider given i'm on a base xbox one. Pc wise I could just react to the indicators.

Not really trying to argue on wether those things are effective or not. Just answered your question on who has armor on moves that can be soft feinted. IIRC you can also soft feint keltic curse into his kick. So it's either his sides if he soft feints or a bash that you look out for. and that bash can also be soft feinted into another bash. I'll have to disagree about raider's soft feints being threatening purely because as I said, he doesn't encourage you to do anything. You just block or GB if he soft feints to GB. Meaning the only thing you really need to look out for is if you see orange mid chain.

But because it's a 1000ms attack it's not speedy so you shouldn't be trying to parry early. And it has no armor. So unless he managed to land a heavy on you before leading into the mix up you have a very good chance of stuffing him on reaction if he lets it fly. This forces raider to either make a read and go for a regular heavy assuming you will try to interrupt as early as possible to trade with finisher HA or he buffers his feint and looks to parry. Soft feinting into stun tap isn't an option for him since you can just wait to OS him with a zone. All you gotta do is leave your guard up top and that's not an option. Basically his chain finisher mix up is a worse orochi's because at least with orochi's people trying to interrupt with an OS will be forced to trade.
This is because unblockable speed+ 100ms link in time if buffered into, and hitstun from anything in orochi's kit sans one side of his SR.

It's silly because lately I've been managing to parry even Tiandi lights quite a lot and then Raider just ruins me 🤣🤣

They don't even need to be great, I'm just trying to parry the dang ol storming tap and I get hit with the heavies instead and then I try to parry the heavies and I'm eating 10 storming taps in a row thinking "this is the time he commits to the heavy". Lol

I don't know why but Raider just gets in my head and it's funny because if I play Raider I get slapped. Obviously it's just something I'm doing wrong against this particular hero and it's most likely that I always try to parry them.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

It's silly because lately I've been managing to parry even Tiandi lights quite a lot and then Raider just ruins me ����

They don't even need to be great, I'm just trying to parry the dang ol storming tap and I get hit with the heavies instead and then I try to parry the heavies and I'm eating 10 storming taps in a row thinking "this is the time he commits to the heavy". Lol

I don't know why but Raider just gets in my head and it's funny because if I play Raider I get slapped. Obviously it's just something I'm doing wrong against this particular hero and it's most likely that I always try to parry them.

It happens weirdly. I for example always struggled with Aramusha, even when he was terrible (not anymore because I play BP).