Warden Zone Attack Stamina Cost Is Too High | Forums

[Lord.Warden.]

You're right, you're not the only one who thinks so, this problem of too much stamina consumption on zone attack, I also discussed it by creating a post on Reddit.
For those who want to read the whole post, I leave the link below:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitive...en_rework_too/

While below, I only write the part about the Warden's zone attack, which I already discussed on the Reddit/CompetitiveForHonor platform:
Warden's zone attack still consumes too much stamina 60stm, its consumption should be decreased to 40stm like Warmonger's since they do the same damage.

There are 2 reasons for this change:
1) I don't understand why Warmonger should have an advantage over Warden when they do the same damage, but Warmonger consumes less stamina.
2) While the second and because of this attack combination (Zone Attack > SB > Double Light or Heavy Attack) this move sequence I already know will end up never being used in battle, because of its enormous consumption of stamina, which will make this part of its kit unusable in battle.

Example with this attack sequence: Zone Attack > SB > Double Light.

- Calculation of stamina consumption: Zone Attack 60stm + SB 12stm + Double Light 15stm = 87stm
- Damage calculation performed: Zone Attack 13dmg+ Double Light 15dmg = 28dmg
- Result: This move sequence is the most expensive in terms of damage done and stamina consumption. I would remind you that the Warden's maximum stamina bar is 120stm, and this sequence of moves consumes 87stm, which is 72,5% of his stamina bar. To get the percentage of how much stamina you consume, just do a simple mathematical calculation:

x : 87 = 100 : 120
x = (100 * 87) :120
x = 72,5%

As you can see from the results, this combination of moves can only be used with the stamina bar at maximum (100%), if used with the stamina bar full to 70% you will immediately find yourself in "Out Of Stamina" making this combination of moves useless in a fight, I also remind you that the game contains many heroes who use the "Bash" damaging your stamina, so you can not really use this move in a fight because you will always find yourself "Out Of Stamina". I understood that the developers wanted you to use all of his kit and not just some of it, so how can you use this sequence of moves (Zone Attack > SB > Double Light), if when you use it you get an "Out Of Stamina"?



I like this idea.

Thank you for your clear numbers and calculations. Let's see how the devs will justify that one now. We gave them the hard numbers and numbers don't lie.

[Lord.Warden.]

Thumbnail is too creepy, won't open it.


I would be fine with stamina cost lowering on Warden zone. If he gets an undodgable though, that shouldn't be the zone, it should be something with harder access or bigger risks involved. Maybe a Light-Light-Light and Heavy-Light chain should be introduced with a slow (533ms) undodgable light or something.

It's just a thumbnail, it has nothing to do with the video. the part was just showcasing how the zone drains all of Warden's Stamina instantly.

As long as I have an undodgable attack, I am a happy man. I don't care where it is. What do you think of the move "Valiant Breakthrough" getting the undodgable property (Dodge forward heavy)? It can't be feinted and is usually an easy deflect/parry unless you're caught rolling.

[Saint_YeetsXB]

Not every character needs an undodgeable. There are zones that use as much or more stamina then wardens. Will no one be satisfied until the character they plays has no counter play or anything? Hes already top tier. You can actually chain from your zone now and it has less recovery. Isnt that enough of an upgrade? So many other characters cant do the and they dont have any special properties on their zones.

Even going with your argument of vanguard v vanguard. Raider should be the first one to get a buff before warden. Hes objectively weaker and doesnt have the ability to use his zone as an option select like warden. Sure it does more damage and all but overall raider is weaker. so in the opinion of fairness raider should get work done before warden.

Give warden more attack chains, give him a light finisher and different chains so he has more opportunities to mix up opponents. Not everyone needs to have all of the special properties in their kits. You can make due without them.

[Lord.Warden.]

Not every character needs an undodgeable. There are zones that use as much or more stamina then wardens. Will no one be satisfied until the character they plays has no counter play or anything? Hes already top tier. You can actually chain from your zone now and it has less recovery. Isnt that enough of an upgrade? So many other characters cant do the and they dont have any special properties on their zones.

Even going with your argument of vanguard v vanguard. Raider should be the first one to get a buff before warden. Hes objectively weaker and doesnt have the ability to use his zone as an option select like warden. Sure it does more damage and all but overall raider is weaker. so in the opinion of fairness raider should get work done before warden.

Give warden more attack chains, give him a light finisher and different chains so he has more opportunities to mix up opponents. Not everyone needs to have all of the special properties in their kits. You can make due without them.

"You can actually chain from your zone now and it has less recovery" Did you not read a thing from the numbers posted above or the video I showed you? The "chain" consumes 87 stamina and deals 28 damage. It's literally unusable in a fight as it will throw you out of stamina immediately and you have to be in full stamina before even considering using it. As for the "low recovery", give me Warmonger's zone recovery time. I don't want insanely low recovery, I want the same recovery as her.

The undodgable property is only a bonus not a requirement, but as Wyrd9- mentioned in his reasons: "I don't understand why Warmonger should have an advantage over Warden when they do the same damage, but Warmonger consumes less stamina."

As for Raider, his option select is usually a light attack not a zone. His zone can be soft feinted, consumes less stamina, and deals way more damage than Warden's. It's also much more viable in externaling opponents as it is unblockable.

[Saint_YeetsXB]

"You can actually chain from your zone now and it has less recovery" Did you not read a thing from the numbers posted above or the video I showed you? The "chain" consumes 87 stamina and deals 28 damage. It's literally unusable in a fight as it will throw you out of stamina immediately and you have to be in full stamina before even considering using it. As for the "low recovery", give me Warmonger's zone recovery time. I don't want insanely low recovery, I want the same recovery as her.

The undodgable property is only a bonus not a requirement, but as Wyrd9- mentioned in his reasons: "I don't understand why Warmonger should have an advantage over Warden when they do the same damage, but Warmonger consumes less stamina."

As for Raider, his option select is usually a light attack not a zone. His zone can be soft feinted, consumes less stamina, and deals way more damage than Warden's. It's also much more viable in externaling opponents as it is unblockable.

I bring up the things you can do with your zone because you CAN DO THEM NOW. You wouldn't even have the option to complain about it without a rework that your character just received. How much is enough. When is it enough? Hes already top tier before the rework and hes top tier after the rework. Let ubi focus on characters that need actual work before coming back to woe is me warden. They released a fix for things being undodgeable in his kit. They obviously dont want him to have it otherwise they would have just added the properties to the attacks.

I as highlander can option select with my zone yeah, but its 700ms, and doesnt chain, and can use the same if not more stamina than wardens and thats with him not receiving any sizable reworks or buffs in years. And no his lights being sped up to 500ms wasnt a buff it was standardization that should have happened along time ago.

You only use the vanguard argument because its convenient to do so. The game has never been balanced around the classes of the heroes. Its just been pure viability. Warden is plenty viable.

[Lord.Warden.]

I bring up the things you can do with your zone because you CAN DO THEM NOW. You wouldn't even have the option to complain about it without a rework that your character just received. How much is enough. When is it enough? Hes already top tier before the rework and hes top tier after the rework. Let ubi focus on characters that need actual work before coming back to woe is me warden. They released a fix for things being undodgeable in his kit. They obviously dont want him to have it otherwise they would have just added the properties to the attacks.

I as highlander can option select with my zone yeah, but its 700ms, and doesnt chain, and can use the same if not more stamina than wardens and thats with him not receiving any sizable reworks or buffs in years. And no his lights being sped up to 500ms wasnt a buff it was standardization that should have happened along time ago.

You only use the vanguard argument because its convenient to do so. The game has never been balanced around the classes of the heroes. Its just been pure viability. Warden is plenty viable.

You can't use them because I showed you the numbers, if you use them, you run out of stamina. Before the rework, the stamina was still costing 60 and it had trash recovery and no chains other than side heavies (no hyper armor or unblockable) or top unblockable. It has been an issue way before the rework. As for the undodgable, I said it's only a bonus not a requirement at the moment and I wouldn't mind having it anywhere in my kit (not necessarily my zone attack).

Highlander swinging a giant heavy sword as if it was a plastic one is "standardization" yes. Last time I played Highlander in dominion, I didn't have to go into my offensive stance once. All I did was Light > Light > Heavy or backward Light > Light > Heavy. Guess what? Won the match with 15 takedowns easily. Let's keep making the game more and more braindead so that every hero is like Gryphon.

I use the Vanguard argument because it makes sense to compare Vanguards to Vanguards. If you want to compare highlander, compare him to other Hybrids and make your argument of why he should receive a buff and what kind of buff it is.

[Saint_YeetsXB]

You can't use them because I showed you the numbers, if you use them, you run out of stamina. Before the rework, the stamina was still costing 60 and it had trash recovery and no chains other than side heavies (no hyper armor or unblockable) or top unblockable. It has been an issue way before the rework. As for the undodgable, I said it's only a bonus not a requirement at the moment and I wouldn't mind having it anywhere in my kit (not necessarily my zone attack).

Highlander swinging a giant heavy sword as if it was a plastic one is "standardization" yes. Last time I played Highlander in dominion, I didn't have to go into my offensive stance once. All I did was Light > Light > Heavy or backward Light > Light > Heavy. Guess what? Won the match with 15 takedowns easily. Let's keep making the game more and more braindead so that every hero is like Gryphon.

I use the Vanguard argument because it makes sense to compare Vanguards to Vanguards. If you want to compare highlander, compare him to other Hybrids and make your argument of why he should receive a buff and what kind of buff it is.

If you got away with light light heavy as highlander in dominion that means the people you were fighting dont know how to fight. That means any character with a light light heavy combo would have done the same. Other than some hyper armor in the chain there is nothing special about it. I dont have issues fighting other highlanders that do this because it is braindead and predictable. Thats your opponents not knowing how to play the game rather than any insinuation that highlander is a braindead character.

But how much is enough, okay fine his zone isnt where you want it. But its a zone not a normal attack as thats not the intention of it. If its got all those properties then its there as a side mix up that you can do. Its not unusable at all. I wish I could chain out of my zone. Even if it took 90% of my stamina. Thats another option you have that I dont.

You have it in your mind that its this broken thing thats just unusable and trash but its not.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

It's just a thumbnail, it has nothing to do with the video. the part was just showcasing how the zone drains all of Warden's Stamina instantly.

As long as I have an undodgable attack, I am a happy man. I don't care where it is. What do you think of the move "Valiant Breakthrough" getting the undodgable property (Dodge forward heavy)? It can't be feinted and is usually an easy deflect/parry unless you're caught rolling.

Don't know. It is still too fast, I don't know if it can be done on reaction if the opponent started their dodge offensively (like JJ side heavy).

[Sanguinius-IX-]

Thank you for your clear numbers and calculations. Let's see how the devs will justify that one now. We gave them the hard numbers and numbers don't lie.

Almost certainly, the developers will ignore us as they did when the entire community asked to set the second light attack of the Warden to 500ms (from 600ms).

This in my opinion is a huge mistake that the developers made when they released the new Warden rework, I write my thoughts below:
In the patch notes the developers say they want to orient the Warden on offense so why give it useless moves?
"Chained Side Light" still has a speed of 600ms making this move effectively useless, this light attack is so slow that 100% of the time it is blocked and 50% of the time it is parried by the opponent. This change does not make the Warden offensive. The community had been clamouring to speed up this light attack to 500ms, I've read a bunch of posts both on "Reddit" and on the "Official For Honor Forum" asking for this light attack to be speeded up to 500ms, and what's more, it's a perfectly reasonable request, there shouldn't be a 600ms light attack, so why have the developers ignored our requests? Explain to me what would be so offensive about in an attack that is constantly being parried?

This is the official(!!) reason:
https://old.reddit.com/r/Competitive...e_damage_than/

Convincing?

Highlander swinging a giant heavy sword as if it was a plastic one is "standardization" yes. Last time I played Highlander in dominion, I didn't have to go into my offensive stance once. All I did was Light > Light > Heavy or backward Light > Light > Heavy. Guess what? Won the match with 15 takedowns easily. Let's keep making the game more and more braindead so that every hero is like Gryphon.

I'm sorry, but "Saint_YeetsXB" is correct here, if you managed to get away with a light>light >heavy domain like Highlander, it means that the people you were fighting don't know how to fight, and are brain dead. I too have no problem has fighting Highlander they do because as "Saint_YeetsXB" said it's evil and predictable brain, at best you can say your opponents don't know how to play.

[Lord.Warden.]

Don't know. It is still too fast, I don't know if it can be done on reaction if the opponent started their dodge offensively (like JJ side heavy).

Introduce new dodge light move that is undodgable like Tiandi's? I mean that's fast too and can be used on reaction.