Warden Zone Attack Stamina Cost Is Too High | Forums

[Goat_of_Vermund]

The new reworking of the Warden for me is disappointing now it seems to play with a rugby player and not with a master of the sword I find nothing funny in doing always the same damn move (Shoulder bash), there are people who already call him "shoulder man".

What they should have done is this:

Adjusts the second light attack.
-"Chained Side Light" speed has been reduced to 500ms (from 600ms), the reason I speed up to 500ms, is because this light attack is so slow that 100% of the time it is blocked and 50% of the time it is parried by the opponent.
-The damage of "Chained Side Light" remains unchanged at 14dmg, because it compensates for the little damage its "Side Light Opener" does.
-Chained light attack now have Undodgeable blue properties ("Chained Light" +Undodgeable). This change was decided in order to give the Warden a conscious choice between increased guaranteed damage with double lights, or undodgeable, but likely parryable and blockable against a floaty opponent.

Addition of 2 new attack chains (Heavy > Light > Heavy) and (Heavy > Light > Shoulder Bash)
New chains: I added these 2 new chains (Heavy > Light > Heavy) and (Heavy > Light > Shoulder Bash).

Adjust the side heavy attack, while top heavy attack is fine as it is.
The speed of the "Side Heavy Finisher" has been reduced to 800ms, its damage is 30, this attack is Unblockable and has a 180° Hit-box (As the developers have already said, they have improved the trajectory of the heavy attack to help it when outnumbered).

New moveset: "Wrath of the Righteous".
Warden stabs opponent, performed by moving backwards and pressing guard break (You can only use this move after a heavy attack, so you can use it after a "Heavy Opener", "Top Heavy Finisher+Unblockable" or "Zone Attack") It deals 25 damage and has speed of 700ms this attack is an Unblockable so it cannot be blocked by the opponent but can be parried, but this attack can be cancelled to catch the opponent with a Guard Break should he try to dodge or parry it. Can be charged. Charged stab deals 34 damage and takes total 1200ms to charge (Attack has speed of 700ms-1200ms total). If it hits the opponent and kills him it guarantees an execution. Counts as chain finisher.

The animation of this move should look something like this: (0:28)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykXc...annel=GameSpot

Adjusting zone attack.
Zone Attack: the stamina cost of the zone attack to 40stm (from 60stm) consumes too much for only 13 dmg. This is correct because Warmonger also has the same zone attack as the Warden but uses less stamina (40stm). This change would help him in outnumbered combat so that he could make this attack without having to wait for the 'Revenge' state with infinite stamina.

Warden was a top 3 duelist, and probably still is. Giving him this many buffs would put him so much above the rest that there would be no reason to play anything else.

[MrBdur]

Thank you. If only the devs bothered to listen.

The devs do bother to listen...




Just not to you.

[MrBdur]

On the other hand, that follow up light attack (500ms) that got "blocked" is enhanced. An unblockable heavy (900ms) will literally never work after a zone attack unless your opponent is out of stamina or you are externaling/switching targets (let alone the insane 100 stamina cost that will most likely run you out of stamina mid chain). It's just too slow and can be easily option selected. No good Warden would let that unblockable fly unless the opponent is a light spammer. Every Warden main (including myself) would feint that into a GB or into a prediction/read parry to the opponent's option select.

"Every warden main feints it to gb." I mean, if that were true then Warden would never win any duel ever, yet he's a top tier duelist.

I think we now know why you think Warden needs buffs. You're predictable and can't figure out why you always lose. You choose to blame Warden for lacking tools to be good but he has tools already, you just don't know how to use them.

Do you know how many times I've landed this impossible chain you speak of?

If you feint the UB to NOTHING a few times instead of going for GB every time, then let the occassional one fly, you may see different results.

[Sanguinius-IX-]

Warden was a top 3 duelist, and probably still is. Giving him this many buffs would put him so much above the rest that there would be no reason to play anything else.

If that's your answer, then it's obvious that you hate the Warden and criticize everything about this hero because you hate him, I didn't give him buffs I balanced him and fixed some of his problems.

Since you seem like someone who doesn't understand, I'll give you a list of his problems.
- Second light attack is still at 600ms. If you agree that his second light attack should remain at 600ms then I warn you right now that you are going against the entire community no hero should have 600ms lights for obvious reasons.

- His Kit still has bugs that the new rework has not fixed, the developers have known about this bug for a long time but have not fixed it yet, I myself reported it on Reddit.
I refer to this BUG: The Warden still can't aim to move his shot forward with a heavy dodge, sometimes it is so bad that he will attack nothing in the space between his first target and his next target.
For more information check out these links:
https://community-static.s3.amazonaw...cky-dodges.mp4

Another link reporting this problem:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitive...itch_his_dash/
Another link reporting this problem:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitive...en_rework_too/

- Having a Shoulder bash that chained to everything makes him a literal "Vortex" hero, not to mention that he doesn't have a Stamina bar big enough to sustain a perpetual attack so it would be better to replace it with another attack, this had been reported several times on Reddit.
Another reason it's bad, check out the video below, I don't find anything funny about winning like this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitive..._counter_play/
To balance it out I created this attack that is very similar to the charged attack of the Hitokiri (New moveset: "Wrath of the Righteous") is unlike the "Shoulder bash" that can not be parried, "Wrath of the Righteous" instead can be parried, another difference is that the Warden can not perform this attack from a neutral position as in the case of the Hitokiri, but can only perform it after a heavy attack.

- His zone attack must cost less stamina, because it is literally equal not only in damage and speed but also recovery to that of the Warmonger.

- His "Side Heavy Finishers" should be at 800ms and not 900ms as they damage 30dmg, I don't understand why they slowed them down to 900ms like the Zhanhu with the only difference being that the Zhanhu damages 32dmg more and not 30dmg.
My change is reasonable since there are already Unblockable attacks with the same 30dmg damage and 800ms speed, and we know they work on a "gameplay" level.
I give a couple of examples:
- Peacekeeper: his final heavy attacks become Unblockable on bleeding opponents.
"Side Heavy Finisher: 22dmg + 11 Bleed damage stab.=33Total damage | 800ms | 12stm
"Top Heavy Finisher: 22mg + 11 Bleed damage stab.=33Total damage | 800ms | 12stm
- Lawbringer:
"Side Heavy Finisher (+Unblockable)": 30dmg | 800ms | 12stm
- Highlander "Balor's Might(+Unblockable)":
"Side Heavy Finisher": 30dmg | 800ms | 12stm
"Top Heavy Finisher": 30dmg | 800ms | 12stm

The devs do bother to listen...




Just not to you.

Actually, some of the things that "Lord.Warden." said, many in the community also said and the developers didn't actually listen, such as when the community asked to reduce the Warden's second light attack 500ms (from 600ms). I'm not going to write a sermon on why it shouldn't exist, but you should already know why a 600ms light attack shouldn't exist.

I had already shared the link in this post but I'm re-posting it since you don't seem to have read it.
https://old.reddit.com/r/Competitive...e_damage_than/
Their response is not convincing at all.

And as for the zone attack, there have been many other people on Reddit asking for the stamina consumption of the Warden's zone attack to be reduced to 40stm. The reason they didn't is because in my opinion they gave the Warden the ability to use his most powerful strike continuously, I'm referring to the "Shoulder bash".

[Lord.Warden.]

"Every warden main feints it to gb." I mean, if that were true then Warden would never win any duel ever, yet he's a top tier duelist.

I think we now know why you think Warden needs buffs. You're predictable and can't figure out why you always lose. You choose to blame Warden for lacking tools to be good but he has tools already, you just don't know how to use them.

Do you know how many times I've landed this impossible chain you speak of?

If you feint the UB to NOTHING a few times instead of going for GB every time, then let the occassional one fly, you may see different results.

Go back and re-read what I said before telling me how I should play my main. I know when to let it fly and when not to let it fly. I was mainly talking about a chain that drains 100 stamina and how unrealistic it is to be used in a 1v1 when the opponent is also full stamina.

The devs do not listen. I made 3 threads on their official bug reporter forum to fix Warden's stamina and gave them all the evidence/numbers of why his stamina cost should be lowered (it was also the same cost since pre CCU when he had 0 chains and the zone had terrible recovery).

[Lord.Warden.]

If that's your answer, then it's obvious that you hate the Warden and criticize everything about this hero because you hate him, I didn't give him buffs I balanced him and fixed some of his problems.

Since you seem like someone who doesn't understand, I'll give you a list of his problems.
- Second light attack is still at 600ms. If you agree that his second light attack should remain at 600ms then I warn you right now that you are going against the entire community no hero should have 600ms lights for obvious reasons.

- His Kit still has bugs that the new rework has not fixed, the developers have known about this bug for a long time but have not fixed it yet, I myself reported it on Reddit.
I refer to this BUG: The Warden still can't aim to move his shot forward with a heavy dodge, sometimes it is so bad that he will attack nothing in the space between his first target and his next target.
For more information check out these links:
https://community-static.s3.amazonaw...cky-dodges.mp4

Another link reporting this problem:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitive...itch_his_dash/
Another link reporting this problem:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitive...en_rework_too/

- Having a Shoulder bash that chained to everything makes him a literal "Vortex" hero, not to mention that he doesn't have a Stamina bar big enough to sustain a perpetual attack so it would be better to replace it with another attack, this had been reported several times on Reddit.
Another reason it's bad, check out the video below, I don't find anything funny about winning like this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitive..._counter_play/
To balance it out I created this attack that is very similar to the charged attack of the Hitokiri (New moveset: "Wrath of the Righteous") is unlike the "Shoulder bash" that can not be parried, "Wrath of the Righteous" instead can be parried, another difference is that the Warden can not perform this attack from a neutral position as in the case of the Hitokiri, but can only perform it after a heavy attack.

- His zone attack must cost less stamina, because it is literally equal not only in damage and speed but also recovery to that of the Warmonger.

- His "Side Heavy Finishers" should be at 800ms and not 900ms as they damage 30dmg, I don't understand why they slowed them down to 900ms like the Zhanhu with the only difference being that the Zhanhu damages 32dmg more and not 30dmg.
My change is reasonable since there are already Unblockable attacks with the same 30dmg damage and 800ms speed, and we know they work on a "gameplay" level.
I give a couple of examples:
- Peacekeeper: his final heavy attacks become Unblockable on bleeding opponents.
"Side Heavy Finisher: 22dmg + 11 Bleed damage stab.=33Total damage | 800ms | 12stm
"Top Heavy Finisher: 22mg + 11 Bleed damage stab.=33Total damage | 800ms | 12stm
- Lawbringer:
"Side Heavy Finisher (+Unblockable)": 30dmg | 800ms | 12stm
- Highlander "Balor's Might(+Unblockable)":
"Side Heavy Finisher": 30dmg | 800ms | 12stm
"Top Heavy Finisher": 30dmg | 800ms | 12stm



Actually, some of the things that "Lord.Warden." said, many in the community also said and the developers didn't actually listen, such as when the community asked to reduce the Warden's second light attack 500ms (from 600ms). I'm not going to write a sermon on why it shouldn't exist, but you should already know why a 600ms light attack shouldn't exist.

I had already shared the link in this post but I'm re-posting it since you don't seem to have read it.
https://old.reddit.com/r/Competitive...e_damage_than/
Their response is not convincing at all.

And as for the zone attack, there have been many other people on Reddit asking for the stamina consumption of the Warden's zone attack to be reduced to 40stm. The reason they didn't is because in my opinion they gave the Warden the ability to use his most powerful strike continuously, I'm referring to the "Shoulder bash".

Yes... Thank you for showcasing all these problems.

Changes needed:
1) Reduce Zone attack stamina cost to 40 stamina instead of 60
2) Speed chained side light to 500ms from 600ms
3) Side heavy unblockables sped up to 800ms like they were in the testing grounds instead of the current 900ms

Future buffs:
1) Give Warden an undodgable attack similar to Warmonger's
2) Fix the tracking of the Valiant Breakthrough (Forward Dodge Heavy) when switching opponents (This bug has always been there and was never touched upon Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitive...en_rework_too/ )

[Goat_of_Vermund]

Go back and re-read what I said before telling me how I should play my main. I know when to let it fly and when not to let it fly. I was mainly talking about a chain that drains 100 stamina and how unrealistic it is to be used in a 1v1 when the opponent is also full stamina.

The devs do not listen. I made 3 threads on their official bug reporter forum to fix Warden's stamina and gave them all the evidence/numbers of why his stamina cost should be lowered (it was also the same cost since pre CCU when he had 0 chains and the zone had terrible recovery).

But according to your answer, you don't play him well if you always feint it. Also, just to clarify why they "don't listen to you": it is not a bug. It's like reporting for example Shugoki's light for being hyperarmor as a bug, or reporting Orochi's side dodge attack for being undodgable. These are not bugs. These are intended game mechanics.

- Having a Shoulder bash that chained to everything makes him a literal "Vortex" hero, not to mention that he doesn't have a Stamina bar big enough to sustain a perpetual attack so it would be better to replace it with another attack, this had been reported several times on Reddit.
Another reason it's bad, check out the video below, I don't find anything funny about winning like this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitive..._counter_play/
To balance it out I created this attack that is very similar to the charged attack of the Hitokiri (New moveset: "Wrath of the Righteous") is unlike the "Shoulder bash" that can not be parried, "Wrath of the Righteous" instead can be parried, another difference is that the Warden can not perform this attack from a neutral position as in the case of the Hitokiri, but can only perform it after a heavy attack.

Oh, I missed the part where shoulderbash is removed from his moveset to balance this out. I thought it would be an additional option to go into not just an unblockable heavy finisher or shoulderbash, but also a 700ms chargable unblockable. This sounds quite cancerous, but if you did it to compensate Warden for a removed shoulderbash, it obviously puts it in a different light. So, did I misunderstand? Because if you remove shoulderbash, it is not a buff.

[Justicator]

From the reddit post (https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitive...tg_patchnotes/)

Other changes

Zone Attack now hits at 500ms

Right Heavy Finisher trajectory is now mirrored from Left Heavy Finisher trajectory

Developer’s comment: These Quality of Life changes should help make Zhanhu be more in-line with other heroes.

Waaait a second; is Zanhu's zone 500ms and still undodgeable in the TG; I did not check it so far, was at work. I am not against this at all, but why then is warden's not undodgeable? Also, I have noticed that most of the heroes in TG have been changed/buffed in a way so that they may have counterplay against certain moves that nulifly most of their kit? Again, great news and great changes, but was this not the main reason why we exactly stated that warden should have an undodgeable attack; so that he may have an answer to balerina dancers that completely nullify his entire offence? Again, yes, you may feint sb into nothing but this enforces defensive play while all we wanted was being able to go into some kind of offence against dodge-happy-I-have-i-frames-until-tomorrow-heroes?

Seems to me ubi is going in the right direction and is giving heroes more options and standardizing certain things that should be standardized. If these changes go live (and let's be hones 99% of it will), it will make the decision to have warden be the only hero with CC on only 1 side, 600ms follow up light attacks and not have any of the following: undodgeable attack/hyper-armour normal attack/dodge attack EXTREMELY weird.

Suggestions that these obvious inconsistencies with soon to be almost all other heroes on the count that he was once the best duellist (but has not been on that spot for years now) or that he was designed to be a simple hero (hero design has changed drastically over the past few years and the ccu also messes very much with this notion) are just not valid.

[Lord.Warden.]

From the reddit post (https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitive...tg_patchnotes/)

Other changes

Zone Attack now hits at 500ms

Right Heavy Finisher trajectory is now mirrored from Left Heavy Finisher trajectory

Developer’s comment: These Quality of Life changes should help make Zhanhu be more in-line with other heroes.

Waaait a second; is Zanhu's zone 500ms and still undodgeable in the TG; I did not check it so far, was at work. I am not against this at all, but why then is warden's not undodgeable? Also, I have noticed that most of the heroes in TG have been changed/buffed in a way so that they may have counterplay against certain moves that nulifly most of their kit? Again, great news and great changes, but was this not the main reason why we exactly stated that warden should have an undodgeable attack; so that he may have an answer to balerina dancers that completely nullify his entire offence? Again, yes, you may feint sb into nothing but this enforces defensive play while all we wanted was being able to go into some kind of offence against dodge-happy-I-have-i-frames-until-tomorrow-heroes?

Seems to me ubi is going in the right direction and is giving heroes more options and standardizing certain things that should be standardized. If these changes go live (and let's be hones 99% of it will), it will make the decision to have warden be the only hero with CC on only 1 side, 600ms follow up light attacks and not have any of the following: undodgeable attack/hyper-armour normal attack/dodge attack EXTREMELY weird.

Suggestions that these obvious inconsistencies with soon to be almost all other heroes on the count that he was once the best duellist (but has not been on that spot for years now) or that he was designed to be a simple hero (hero design has changed drastically over the past few years and the ccu also messes very much with this notion) are just not valid.

Exactly my thoughts.

[sakesakesake]

Bad thread.

Youve handpicked characters with low zone cost. (warmonger and tiandi) for comparison.
Youve ignored the cost for feinting which most characters have to do but not warden.

If i want to give an opposite example: Glads zone is 40 stam + 40 for the feint/second and comes in at a whopping 80 stam regardless of outcome. (deservedly so!)

Zones cant be cheap because zones costing a ton of stam is the balance tradeoff for zone OS. (see above definitely required for glad).

I agree that the game shouldnt have 600ms zones in general but since thats not a point made by the op his thread is still garabge.
Warden zone has the better deal here at 500ms AND possibility to chain. If you dont want to go oos because you zone, dont spam zone.