Warden Zone Attack Stamina Cost Is Too High | Forums

[Goat_of_Vermund]

She does more damage if she starts her sequence with the Zone attack which is the heart of this topic. We're not asking for any damage buffs or nerfs. We just want to have the same stamina cost as her.

Warmonger: Zone attack 40stm, Light attack 9stm, bash 15stm, Light attack 9stm = 39 damage & 73 stamina
Warden: Zone Attack 60stm + SB 12stm + Double Light 15stm = 28 damage & 87stm

Warden does more damage than Warmonger:

Warmonger: Zone attack 40stm, Light attack 9stm, bash 15stm, Light attack 9stm = 39 damage & 73 stamina
Warden: Zone Attack 60stm + Heavy Finisher 12stm + SB 12stm + Double Light 15stm = 60 damage & 99stm

[Lord.Warden.]

Warden does more damage than Warmonger:

Warmonger: Zone attack 40stm, Light attack 9stm, bash 15stm, Light attack 9stm = 39 damage & 73 stamina
Warden: Zone Attack 60stm + Heavy Finisher 12stm + SB 12stm + Double Light 15stm = 60 damage & 99stm

Those are not the same sequences. Warden's sequence you posted would never work unless the player is new and it would always get option selected on the unblockable heavy finisher (let alone the insane 100 stamina consumption that forces you do to this useless sequence only when you are at 100% stamina which again is not likely or smart to do in a fight aka useless sequence). Now if the stamina consumption was truly low as it should be on the zone attack, then yes that would be the case because then you could probably hard feint into GB and continue your chain afterwards.

The sequence I posted that is similar to Warmonger's and more likely to work is:
Warden: Zone Attack 60stm + SB 12stm + Double Light 15stm = 28 damage & 87stm

After stamina adjustment to 40 on zone:
Warden: Zone Attack 40stm + SB 12stm + Double Light 15stm = 28 damage & 67stm (Reasonable amount)

[Goat_of_Vermund]

Those are not the same sequences. Warden's sequence you posted would never work unless the player is new and it would always get option selected on the unblockable heavy finisher (let alone the insane 100 stamina consumption that forces you do to this useless sequence only when you are at 100% stamina which again is not likely or smart to do in a fight aka useless sequence). Now if the stamina consumption was truly low as it should be on the zone attack, then yes that would be the case because then you could probably hard feint into GB and continue your chain afterwards.

The sequence I posted that is similar to Warmonger's and more likely to work is:
Warden: Zone Attack 60stm + SB 12stm + Double Light 15stm = 28 damage & 87stm

After stamina adjustment to 40 on zone:
Warden: Zone Attack 40stm + SB 12stm + Double Light 15stm = 28 damage & 67stm (Reasonable amount)

Mine is more similar. Zone+one attack that is likely to be parried on high level into uncharged bash.

[Lord.Warden.]

Mine is more similar. Zone+one attack that is likely to be parried on high level into uncharged bash.

Yours is nowhere near similar. Are you forgetting that light attacks are faster than heavy attacks? Which is more likely to get parried? An unblockable heavy (warden) or a light attack (warmonger)? The unlbockable heavy obviously is more likely to get parried due to option selecting. Therefore, that sequence never works unless the opponent is out of stamina or if you're switching targets (externaling).

The devs need to fix the stamina consumption already on that zone attack (it's been there even before CCU when he couldn't chain into anything). This shouldn't be an argument in the first place and should be universally agreed upon.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

Yours is nowhere near similar. Are you forgetting that light attacks are faster than heavy attacks? Which is more likely to get parried? An unblockable heavy (warden) or a light attack (warmonger)? The unlbockable heavy obviously is more likely to get parried due to option selecting. Therefore, that sequence never works unless the opponent is out of stamina or if you're switching targets (externaling).

The devs need to fix the stamina consumption already on that zone attack (it's been there even before CCU when he couldn't chain into anything). This shouldn't be an argument in the first place and should be universally agreed upon.

On the other hand, a light attack is more likely to be blocked than an unblockable heavy.

[Lord.Warden.]

On the other hand, a light attack is more likely to be blocked than an unblockable heavy.

On the other hand, that follow up light attack (500ms) that got "blocked" is enhanced. An unblockable heavy (900ms) will literally never work after a zone attack unless your opponent is out of stamina or you are externaling/switching targets (let alone the insane 100 stamina cost that will most likely run you out of stamina mid chain). It's just too slow and can be easily option selected. No good Warden would let that unblockable fly unless the opponent is a light spammer. Every Warden main (including myself) would feint that into a GB or into a prediction/read parry to the opponent's option select.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

On the other hand, that follow up light attack (500ms) that got "blocked" is enhanced. An unblockable heavy (900ms) will literally never work after a zone attack unless your opponent is out of stamina or you are externaling/switching targets (let alone the insane 100 stamina cost that will most likely run you out of stamina mid chain). It's just too slow and can be easily option selected. No good Warden would let that unblockable fly unless the opponent is a light spammer. Every Warden main (including myself) would feint that into a GB or into a prediction/read parry to the opponent's option select.

Hm... that might explain why I beat most good Warden mains, if they always threaten with a move I know they would never commit to, it is not really threatening. Unlockables work very well if you condition your opponent and you put them in a blockstun/hitstun long enough to make your attack uninterruptible. After a Warden zone, your opponent is forced to commit to a parry, dodge, zone os, or not doing anything. If you plan to let it go every time, it won't work.

Trust me, on high levels, that Warmonger light followup is just as likely to be parried, it is the most obvious move she has because she is forced to do that if she wants to access her only offense that forces a reaction. Everyone is fishing for that light to be parried. An unblockable at least can be feinted.

[Knight_Raime]

Hm... that might explain why I beat most good Warden mains, if they always threaten with a move I know they would never commit to, it is not really threatening. Unlockables work very well if you condition your opponent and you put them in a blockstun/hitstun long enough to make your attack uninterruptible. After a Warden zone, your opponent is forced to commit to a parry, dodge, zone os, or not doing anything. If you plan to let it go every time, it won't work.

Trust me, on high levels, that Warmonger light followup is just as likely to be parried, it is the most obvious move she has because she is forced to do that if she wants to access her only offense that forces a reaction. Everyone is fishing for that light to be parried. An unblockable at least can be feinted.

Not that I particularly enjoy these perfect scenario discussions but i'm going to have to agree with Goat here.

"high level" is a loosely defined term that's hard to quantify because it means something different to different people.

If we're to look at the best players of the game parrying that 500ms light is no more or less difficult of a reaction than reacting to parry flash or option selecting warden's unblockable finisher heavies since that's a timing they'd have long mastered. In both cases conditioning is what you're having to use in order for either to be effective.

I can say from watching WM duels myself for these players she's dodging and bashing a lot more than using her actual chains. her strength in duels isn't chains at all and you'd really only see the light come out in specific scenarios when the person is confident in the conditioning. New Warden is already considered to be a better duelist than WM still. And that's because his chains are actually threatening. He gets to continue his pressure from anything.

[Sanguinius-IX-]

The new reworking of the Warden for me is disappointing now it seems to play with a rugby player and not with a master of the sword I find nothing funny in doing always the same damn move (Shoulder bash), there are people who already call him "shoulder man".

What they should have done is this:

Adjusts the second light attack.
-"Chained Side Light" speed has been reduced to 500ms (from 600ms), the reason I speed up to 500ms, is because this light attack is so slow that 100% of the time it is blocked and 50% of the time it is parried by the opponent.
-The damage of "Chained Side Light" remains unchanged at 14dmg, because it compensates for the little damage its "Side Light Opener" does.
-Chained light attack now have Undodgeable blue properties ("Chained Light" +Undodgeable). This change was decided in order to give the Warden a conscious choice between increased guaranteed damage with double lights, or undodgeable, but likely parryable and blockable against a floaty opponent.

Addition of 2 new attack chains (Heavy > Light > Heavy) and (Heavy > Light > Shoulder Bash)
New chains: I added these 2 new chains (Heavy > Light > Heavy) and (Heavy > Light > Shoulder Bash).

Adjust the side heavy attack, while top heavy attack is fine as it is.
The speed of the "Side Heavy Finisher" has been reduced to 800ms, its damage is 30, this attack is Unblockable and has a 180° Hit-box (As the developers have already said, they have improved the trajectory of the heavy attack to help it when outnumbered).

New moveset: "Wrath of the Righteous".
Warden stabs opponent, performed by moving backwards and pressing guard break (You can only use this move after a heavy attack, so you can use it after a "Heavy Opener", "Top Heavy Finisher+Unblockable" or "Zone Attack") It deals 25 damage and has speed of 700ms this attack is an Unblockable so it cannot be blocked by the opponent but can be parried, but this attack can be cancelled to catch the opponent with a Guard Break should he try to dodge or parry it. Can be charged. Charged stab deals 34 damage and takes total 1200ms to charge (Attack has speed of 700ms-1200ms total). If it hits the opponent and kills him it guarantees an execution. Counts as chain finisher.
EDIT:Add this: Hyperarmour starts at 1000ms.

The animation of this move should look something like this: (0:28)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykXc...annel=GameSpot

Adjusting zone attack.
Zone Attack: the stamina cost of the zone attack to 40stm (from 60stm) consumes too much for only 13 dmg. This is correct because Warmonger also has the same zone attack as the Warden but uses less stamina (40stm). This change would help him in outnumbered combat so that he could make this attack without having to wait for the 'Revenge' state with infinite stamina.

[Lord.Warden.]

The new reworking of the Warden for me is disappointing now it seems to play with a rugby player and not with a master of the sword I find nothing funny in doing always the same damn move (Shoulder bash), there are people who already call him "shoulder man".

What they should have done is this:

Adjusts the second light attack.
-"Chained Side Light" speed has been reduced to 500ms (from 600ms), the reason I speed up to 500ms, is because this light attack is so slow that 100% of the time it is blocked and 50% of the time it is parried by the opponent.
-The damage of "Chained Side Light" remains unchanged at 14dmg, because it compensates for the little damage its "Side Light Opener" does.
-Chained light attack now have Undodgeable blue properties ("Chained Light" +Undodgeable). This change was decided in order to give the Warden a conscious choice between increased guaranteed damage with double lights, or undodgeable, but likely parryable and blockable against a floaty opponent.

Addition of 2 new attack chains (Heavy > Light > Heavy) and (Heavy > Light > Shoulder Bash)
New chains: I added these 2 new chains (Heavy > Light > Heavy) and (Heavy > Light > Shoulder Bash).

Adjust the side heavy attack, while top heavy attack is fine as it is.
The speed of the "Side Heavy Finisher" has been reduced to 800ms, its damage is 30, this attack is Unblockable and has a 180° Hit-box (As the developers have already said, they have improved the trajectory of the heavy attack to help it when outnumbered).

New moveset: "Wrath of the Righteous".
Warden stabs opponent, performed by moving backwards and pressing guard break (You can only use this move after a heavy attack, so you can use it after a "Heavy Opener", "Top Heavy Finisher+Unblockable" or "Zone Attack") It deals 25 damage and has speed of 700ms this attack is an Unblockable so it cannot be blocked by the opponent but can be parried, but this attack can be cancelled to catch the opponent with a Guard Break should he try to dodge or parry it. Can be charged. Charged stab deals 34 damage and takes total 1200ms to charge (Attack has speed of 700ms-1200ms total). If it hits the opponent and kills him it guarantees an execution. Counts as chain finisher.

The animation of this move should look something like this: (0:28)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykXc...annel=GameSpot

Adjusting zone attack.
Zone Attack: the stamina cost of the zone attack to 40stm (from 60stm) consumes too much for only 13 dmg. This is correct because Warmonger also has the same zone attack as the Warden but uses less stamina (40stm). This change would help him in outnumbered combat so that he could make this attack without having to wait for the 'Revenge' state with infinite stamina.

Thank you. If only the devs bothered to listen.