[FEEDBACK] Docklands Import/Export system rebalance | Forums

[avalyah]

Hi,

the newest DLC, Docklands, introduced an import/export system to the game. Unfortunately, this system is extremely powerful, without any limitations and allows for skipping major parts of the game.

The problem:
The trade value of goods and the availability of raw resources for import introduce a case where you can create a perpetuum mobile machine that requires no input and only outputs extreme amount of wealth, and not in terms of money (which has limited use), but in terms of many very important goods. Say you have 15 bicycle factories around a trade union with Bruno Ironbright, Dario the Mechanical Engineer and a third item of your choice.



With that setup you can produce 90t/m of bicycles. Assuming Tobias visits every 30 minutes (a rough estimate) it allows to produce 2700 bicycles that are available for trade. Let's see what we can do with them (assuming bicycles are at the top of the pyramid with the x2 modifier):

1. Buy 2700 iron ore and 2700 caoutchouc - this gets back all the raw resources we used and enables the production of next batch without having to actually build mines or caoutchouc plantations. This cost us 320t of bicycles which is 12% of original production.

We have 2380 bicycles left.

2. We could buy 6700t of coffee. This means, that this single trade union setup allows to produce 223t/m of coffee.
3. We could buy 7100t of coholate. So 237t/min of chocolate.
4. We could buy 6000t of: grain + potatoes + pigs + peppers + beef + coal + iron + zinc +copper + gold ore + hops. 200t/m of all those goods at the same time.

At the same time that we produced 2700 bikes we also, as a byproduct, have ~900t of advanced weapons, ~900t of steam engines, ~300t of pocket watches and ~300t of gramophones. Those goods combined have additional value of 9000t of coffee (so 134% value of the bikes themselves).

As such, a single trade union setup provides obscene amount of resources. And this is not only this one example - you can choose any high value good, produce it en masse in 10-15 factories, use a small part of the output to get the raw materials back and all the rest is added value that you can turn into goods.

The main issue summarised - Import system requires no input resources to get huge amounts of other resources. A perpetuum motion machine of generating unlimited amounts of all goods available for import, which can coincidentally fulfill most of the needs of Engineers, Investors and Scholars.


This has the effect of obsoleting a lot of content:
1. New World - its farming exports and related goods (Coffee, Chocolate, Caoutchouc, Tobacco, gold etc) are useless now. New World provides no value over what you can get with a small setup using the Import/export system.
2. Arctic - used for airships, gas, furs and gold. Currently both furs and gold are much easier obtained via Docklands. The DLC is reduced to gas and airships.
3. Enbesa - all but 1 need of Scholars needs can be fulfilled via import. This means that building stuff in Enbesa has no actual purpose, unless a small settlement for this one single good - tapestry.
4. Bright Harvest - the ability to obtain extreme amounts of all grain, animals etc via Docklands by selling small quantities of high value goods means that this DLC has no purpose anymore, apart from aesthethic.


The proposed solutions:
1. Remove raw goods being available for import. This solution still keeps a lot of the power of the system intact, but does not allow to get resources out of thin air. On the bicycle examples - you would still have to produce iron and caoutchouc and it would be a limiting factor on how much you can do with that.
2. Reduce the number of ships Tobias has so that his travel time and loading/unloading speed have an effect of how much goods can be effectively traded. This way it will be much more important to trade for the high value goods which occupy smaller amount of space and take far less time to unload in comparison to raw goods.

I would be interested to hear about other solutions. The ones I provided, especially the first one, seems to be the absolute easiest to implement - just replace the raw resources with some other resources in the import section and many issues would be alleviated, at lest to the point the system is extremely powerful, rather than absolutely broken.

Thanks and I hope the developers do take note of the issues about this system being raised here, on reddit, on youtube etc.

[Brando_0070]

Can I ask a question - have you tried starting a new game and using Docklands or did you just implement the DLC into an already late game save?

How would it play out if you couldnt afford to build 15 bycycle factories and/or not have access to the items/characters you mention in your setup?

Adding it into a late game save would surely enable you to exploit it to the max, as you would already have unlimited money to initially set up everything you need.
Practically everything is trivial in the end game as you have so much money, access to every item/character within 10 mins and its just a case of using space as efficiently as your population requirements demand.

Many people cant even reach investor stage, many people dont like having to juggle (become overwhelmed) between old world/new world/enbesa, many people like they can get unlimited resources as it enables them to get even higher populations than they could before, many people like that they can trim some of the chains as they, personally, would just like to be able to build a city how they like without worrying about balancing each and every need.

You seem to be only seeing it from how you like to play the game whilst ignoring the many other ways that different people enjoy playing the game.

[avalyah]

Adding it into a late game save would surely enable you to exploit it to the max, as you would already have unlimited money to initially set up everything you need.
Practically everything is trivial in the end game as you have so much money, access to every item/character within 10 mins and its just a case of using space as efficiently as your population requirements demand.

First of all - most of the DLC content is based around late game - with everything unlocked and investors supplied.

Secondly, money is irrelevant here, because after getting the ability to build banks there is no shortage of it. As such it should not be taken into the equation. You can do the same thing with Sewing Machine Factory - would you say that getting 3-4 of them is something reserved for late game? I don't think so, it is trivial to set up a perpetuum mobile money and goods making machine with very little initial resource input. Give it a couple tours of Tobias and you will be swimming in money if that's what you want. With money you can't outright buy huge quantities of various goods. With the import system you can - and for free basically.

I'm not ignoring other ways to play. If you want unlimited resources just install a trainer or a mod that will do that for you. Anno never was a themepark building sandbox, it always heavily incorporated managing production, logistics, needs fulfillment and beauty.

The import system in its current iteration goes against core Anno values, something which was heavily frown upon when logistics were removed in Anno 2205, so why now it is reportedly so desiired now?

Having at least a little bit of challenge with managing production and logistics was always at the heart of Anno and it should stay that way.

Also please explain how my proposed solutions would be harmful to the way you play? If you "decide to not abuse it" then it won't affect you at all, so why not let the others still play the Anno they fell in love with, and not a good looking themepark sandbox city builder, which Anno never aimed to be? I'm not advocating against the system entirely, but by limiting it to reasonable (and still far more powerful than all other DLCs combined) levels.

[Brando_0070]

First of all - most of the DLC content is based around late game - with everything unlocked and investors supplied.

But you can unlock Docklands at Artisan level, correct?
I havent done it myself, but I am pretty sure that if you start a new save, and reach Artisan level then the use of Docklands wouldnt be anywhere near the same as just activating it in a late game save where you have unlimited money.
By doing that you have nullified many of the choices you would have to make.
How many viable goods are you massively over producing at that point?
How many of the high end items have you got at that point?
How many bike factories would you be able to support at that time?
How much extra storage space could you afford?

Secondly, money is irrelevant here,

Its not irrelevant. The only reason you can use Docklands as you describe is because you are swimming in money.
See my point above - unlock it at Artisan level and see how powerful it seems then when everything is a little tighter.

I'm not ignoring other ways to play. If you want unlimited resources just install a trainer or a mod that will do that for you.

I didnt say I wanted unlimited resources. I said some people might like to use Docklands in many different ways, which this allows. All the people that dont like managing many different sessions, supplying all demands ect. have had to do that up until this point, now they have a different way to play if they choose to. Whats wrong with that?

Anno never was a themepark building sandbox, it always heavily incorporated managing production, logistics, needs fulfillment and beauty.

And it still does, nothing has been taken away from the game. This just allows some players to play in a different way. Broadening the appeal of Anno is in everyones interest, as the more people that play the more content will get made.

Having at least a little bit of challenge with managing production and logistics was always at the heart of Anno and it should stay that way.

You argue that you want a challenge but then introduce Docklands into a late game save with unlimited money where you mitigate all the challenge

Also please explain how my proposed solutions would be harmful to the way you play? If you "decide to not abuse it" then it won't affect you at all,

Your "best" solution to the problem, as you see it, is to "Remove raw goods being available for import". But some people find the lack of iron and raw goods stops them from playing the game the way they want to play it ie. max population guys can now break through the limits that were there before, thus, adding value for them and the way they play.

so why not let the others still play the Anno they fell in love with, and not a good looking themepark sandbox city builder, which Anno never aimed to be?

Were you enjoying the game/challenge before Docklands was released?
If so, there is nothing stopping you playing exactly the same way.
And just because you fell in love with your ideal of what Anno is/should be, what about all the players that dont share your view?

Try starting again, unlock Docklands at Artisan level and see if you think it is still so OP then.

[avalyah]

But you can unlock Docklands at Artisan level, correct?
I havent done it myself, but I am pretty sure that if you start a new save, and reach Artisan level then the use of Docklands wouldnt be anywhere near the same as just activating it in a late game save where you have unlimited money.
By doing that you have nullified many of the choices you would have to make.
How many viable goods are you massively over producing at that point?
How many of the high end items have you got at that point?
How many bike factories would you be able to support at that time?
How much extra storage space could you afford?

Its not irrelevant. The only reason you can use Docklands as you describe is because you are swimming in money.
See my point above - unlock it at Artisan level and see how powerful it seems then when everything is a little tighter.

You don't seem to realise the way docklands is used as I described it. Money is not at all an issue - if you actually tried that, you would know. I did try and I know what I'm talking about.

I didnt say I wanted unlimited resources. I said some people might like to use Docklands in many different ways, which this allows. All the people that dont like managing many different sessions, supplying all demands ect. have had to do that up until this point, now they have a different way to play if they choose to. Whats wrong with that?

The wrong part is that playing any other way but through docklands now is extremely inefficient. For some people the fact that they are doing something just for the sake of doing it is not a fun experience and knowing that Docklands do everything better spoils the fun. Please try to empathise, because many people I know have a similar attitude.

And it still does, nothing has been taken away from the game. This just allows some players to play in a different way. Broadening the appeal of Anno is in everyones interest, as the more people that play the more content will get made.

Jack of all trades, master of none. If pure beauty building is something Anno wants to be known for, let it be through an ingame optional tick at the start, not part of a paid DLC. More isn't always better.

You argue that you want a challenge but then introduce Docklands into a late game save with unlimited money where you mitigate all the challenge

Again, you completely miss the point. The challenge was to produce, supply, manage trade routes etc. It is gone now, since there is 10x better way to do this by jsut clicking on what you need in the import/export menu. For the third time, money has absolutely no relation to any problems I'm mentioning. You can print as much money as you want through docklands, even starting with a couple of fishing wharfs.

Your "best" solution to the problem, as you see it, is to "Remove raw goods being available for import". But some people find the lack of iron and raw goods stops them from playing the game the way they want to play it ie. max population guys can now break through the limits that were there before, thus, adding value for them and the way they play.

Well, removing all production and only leaving houses would enable them to go for even higher population. Would you say that it is a good design choice? I don't think the guys going for the record want to have specific numbers - they just want more than others. Whether it is 2m, 10m or 100m is irrelevant.

Were you enjoying the game/challenge before Docklands was released?
If so, there is nothing stopping you playing exactly the same way.
And just because you fell in love with your ideal of what Anno is/should be, what about all the players that dont share your view?

There is - again I ask you to empathise that if there is a way to do something 10 times easier, it spoiles the fun for me (and not only) if I have to artificially force myself to use other methods and ignore the available ones.

Try starting again, unlock Docklands at Artisan level and see if you think it is still so OP then.

I do think it is still so OP. It is OP in its very nature, even if it started at peasant level.

[Brando_0070]

You don't seem to realise the way docklands is used as I described it. Money is not at all an issue - if you actually tried that, you would know. I did try and I know what I'm talking about.

So you started a new game and unlocked it at Artisan level? Genuinely interested.

The wrong part is that playing any other way but through docklands now is extremely inefficient. For some people the fact that they are doing something just for the sake of doing it is not a fun experience and knowing that Docklands do everything better spoils the fun. Please try to empathise, because many people I know have a similar attitude.

But not everyone feels the need or even wants to play the game in the most efficient way
You choose to and that is fine and you ask me to empathise with your way of playing but you dismiss everyone elses point of view. Im not just basing this on our discussion here but I saw your threads on Reddit trying to argue the same point and getting just as many people disagreeing with as agreeing with you. So try and empathise with those guys too

Jack of all trades, master of none. If pure beauty building is something Anno wants to be known for, let it be through an ingame optional tick at the start, not part of a paid DLC. More isn't always better.

Im not arguing for a pure beauty building game.
More is always better
As I said before, they havent actually taken anything away from the game with this DLC.
But again you are not seeing it from others point of view. Many, many people struggle on the easiest settings and cant proceed, you can so dont see it as a problem and probably think the base game was too easy as it was.
Thats all fine too, maybe in the next game they can add a super hard core no save version to cater to the people that would actually like that.
But adding optional stuff to the exisiting game that might drag in new customers really does benefit everyone.
Hasnt this version sold more than any previous Anno game?
Maybe because its not super hard core and appeals to many other people who dont feel the need to have to visit websites to find out the optimal way of doing everything (if they are not so astute to see it for themselves).

Again, you completely miss the point. The challenge was to produce, supply, manage trade routes etc. It is gone now, since there is 10x better way to do this by jsut clicking on what you need in the import/export menu. For the third time, money has absolutely no relation to any problems I'm mentioning. You can print as much money as you want through docklands, even starting with a couple of fishing wharfs.

But it hasnt gone you just cant resist using it that way
Money isnt ever a problem once you get a hold on things anyway. My whole point with mentioning money is that by already having a maxed bank account you can use Docklands to its max straight away.
How long would it take you to reach that level just starting with a couple of fishing wharfs instead of your super efficient/expensive 15 bike factories setup?
Be honest.

There is - again I ask you to empathise that if there is a way to do something 10 times easier, it spoiles the fun for me (and not only) if I have to artificially force myself to use other methods and ignore the available ones.

In early game did you massively over produce soap to sell to the prison? over and above trying to play in a different way?
Yes that is probably the most efficient way to make money early game but didnt that spoil your fun too? Certainly would have removed some of that early game challenge you so desperately crave.
You want to play the most efficient way and dont want to have to pose any self control at all and everyone else has to play it that way too (as currently there are no options/sliders/menus to alter this) and keep talking about empathy

Sometimes I think you have to accept that a game is not going to be as hard as you, personally, want it to be as that just wouldnt appeal to enough people.
Yes this is a paid DLC but you could have held off buying it and see how it was recieved, watched some vids/playthroughs and made an informed decision on if it fits your playstyle. But you didnt and it doesnt.
For many other people it does so maybe try and empathise with them too

[avalyah]

So you started a new game and unlocked it at Artisan level? Genuinely interested.

Sorry, don't have time for that, especially to prove something. I know how the system works, I have started the game many times and have sunk 750h in it so far. The whole issue about Docklands is how easy it is to setup and make stuff out of thin air.

But not everyone feels the need or even wants to play the game in the most efficient way
You choose to and that is fine and you ask me to empathise with your way of playing but you dismiss everyone elses point of view. Im not just basing this on our discussion here but I saw your threads on Reddit trying to argue the same point and getting just as many people disagreeing with as agreeing with you. So try and empathise with those guys too

Judging by people who actively take part in the discussions there and not just actively downvote everything and stay silent, I'd say there are more people with "my" point of view there. After all it is about core Anno gameplay which I want to preserve. But I'd rather not continue pointless conversations from there here.

Also not every issue is "us" vs "them". This is neither about me, nor you, but about preserving gameplay and objectively bad design decision which is the import/export system in its current state. By objectively I mean from game design perspective, not what we want or don't want.

Im not arguing for a pure beauty building game.
More is always better

More of good is always better. If the more part includes bad stuff I'd argue it is not really better.

As I said before, they havent actually taken anything away from the game with this DLC.

Only my and many other people's enjoyment. After all no content was removed per se, it was only removed by making it useless "by accident" (I hope).

But again you are not seeing it from others point of view. Many, many people struggle on the easiest settings and cant proceed, you can so dont see it as a problem and probably think the base game was too easy as it was.
Thats all fine too, maybe in the next game they can add a super hard core no save version to cater to the people that would actually like that.
But adding optional stuff to the exisiting game that might drag in new customers really does benefit everyone.
Hasnt this version sold more than any previous Anno game?
Maybe because its not super hard core and appeals to many other people who dont feel the need to have to visit websites to find out the optimal way of doing everything (if they are not so astute to see it for themselves).

If people struggle even on easiest settings then perhaps it is not a game for them? Anno newer was too difficult and there are options when making the game that make it really trivial. Anno won't get new players by introducing a DLC that only starts at the Artisan level. Most DLCs are heavily late game oriented for a reason ans should be viewed as such.

But it hasnt gone you just cant resist using it that way
Money isnt ever a problem once you get a hold on things anyway. My whole point with mentioning money is that by already having a maxed bank account you can use Docklands to its max straight away.
How long would it take you to reach that level just starting with a couple of fishing wharfs instead of your super efficient/expensive 15 bike factories setup?
Be honest.

My setup is not super expensive, only efficient. Fishing wharves are an exxageration (though with items they too will work), but at artisan level you do have sewing machine factories. That's all you need. They are not expensive at all. You don't need the items either, they just speed things up. Build 2 factories but instead of supplying the citizens use the sewing machines to get back the raw materials and some other stuff you want, you can then sell that stuff for money. Now build 2 more factories, rinse, repeat and with every cycle you grow your production power byt building more factories (they don't need raw material related buildings, so your workers are free to delete or do other stuff).

For the rest of the stuff I have no comment, I don't want to repeat myself for the tenth time and then hear the same arguments back, sorry. I'd rather stay on topic of how to rebalance the import.export feature, and not whether or not that should be done since there are obviously differing opinions here. Just hope that the devs realise that this system is in need of some tweaks and in its current state will be detrimental to the game in the long run. It's a matter of trust as well - so far I had trust that any implemented featues, while may be powerful, won't break the gameplay. Now I can no longer be sure of that.

[Brando_0070]

Sorry, don't have time for that, especially to prove something. I know how the system works, I have started the game many times and have sunk 750h in it so far. The whole issue about Docklands is how easy it is to setup and make stuff out of thin air.

As it is unlocked at Artisan level I would hazard a guess it is meant to be played from that level and not just plonked into a late game save where, I feel its safe to say, its almost expected to be more unbalanced, for all the reasons I have already explained.

Judging by people who actively take part in the discussions there and not just actively downvote everything and stay silent, I'd say there are more people with "my" point of view there.

Funny you should say that
I did a quick scan of the 3 biggest threads discussing this very issue and I think you will be surprised to find that there were about 21 people agreeing with you that it was OP, a couple of which wanted the whole game even harder and one said it was probably OP but he was having fun with it anyway.
23 people said it was either just what they wanted or didnt have a problem with it.
It was interesting that there was nearly as many posts discussing pizza and the correct use of upvotes/downvotes, so maybe not such the hot topic you believe it to be
If it was such a massive problem then I would expect there to be far more people saying it was OP as, with all game forums, people generally go there to voice their displeasure at some function or another where people who are happy dont even bother.

Also not every issue is "us" vs "them". This is neither about me, nor you, but about preserving gameplay and objectively bad design decision which is the import/export system in its current state. By objectively I mean from game design perspective, not what we want or don't want.

It probably could have been balanced better but it is far from broken as you state.
Its not about what we want...maybe just what you want

More of good is always better. If the more part includes bad stuff I'd argue it is not really better.

Good and bad are subjective terms. As many people dont have a problem with it as those that do, as proved by the reddit threads.

Only my and many other people's enjoyment. After all no content was removed per se, it was only removed by making it useless "by accident" (I hope).

But you refuse to see that other people might just enjoy the way it is now, for many different reasons, not just the fact that you can do the cheese you describe.
It doesnt make anything usless as nothing has been removed. I could fully understand if they had removed the new world and just said , we have looked at our data and read some reports of people struggling to juggle the new world/old world so here you go this is much easier, but they didnt.

If people struggle even on easiest settings then perhaps it is not a game for them? Anno newer was too difficult and there are options when making the game that make it really trivial.

Have to say you are coming across as a little elitest there
It can not cater just to the hard core, the devs have tried to broaden its appeal and have been rewarded with the best selling title in the franchise. Many players who have played every title in the series list this as their favourite.

Anno won't get new players by introducing a DLC that only starts at the Artisan level. Most DLCs are heavily late game oriented for a reason and should be viewed as such.

But in this case it opens at Artsian which is far from late game.
Maybe the devs saw that many people were struggling and designed Docklands to help supply things that were causing them problems before, therefore enabling them to finally push on and see more of what the game has to offer. Then they could maybe recommend it to others when they had held back before as they thought it was too hard. They then might also spend more money on DLC that they avoided as they thought they just wouldnt be able to do it.
But your opinion is just that well maybe its not the game for them.
Again not everyone is at the same level when it comes to any game, some will struggle where others find it too easy.
Its down to the devs to try and cater to both, and as they havent taken anything away, they have done just that.

Fishing wharves are an exxageration

I am glad you could at least admit that

My setup is not super expensive, only efficient. but at artisan level you do have sewing machine factories. That's all you need. They are not expensive at all. You don't need the items either, they just speed things up. Build 2 factories but instead of supplying the citizens use the sewing machines to get back the raw materials and some other stuff you want, you can then sell that stuff for money. Now build 2 more factories, rinse, repeat and with every cycle you grow your production power byt building more factories (they don't need raw material related buildings, so your workers are free to delete or do other stuff).

But you wont go back to Artisan and play it as intended.
Without exploiting selling soap to the prison (which I see you didnt reply on) that would be a very slow process.
2 factories alone would cost you 24000 and 1000 upkeep, not cheap for many people at that stage of the game.
How many sewing machines, without the best items, would you be able to make?
It wouldnt be anywhere near the sort of return you say is broken when building whatever you want in your unlimited money late game city.

As for the rest of it, you dont really want to hear any different opinions.
Cant see how you can state so confidently that it will be bad for the game in the long run when many dont appear to have much of a problem with how Docklands is now.
They might go and tweak the ratios or something but its pretty safe to say that whatever they do wont really go far enough for you.

Genuinely hope the other DLC is more to your taste though.

[Night.W0LF]

I too think that Docklands ruined the balance of the game.
Atm I am mainly exporting advanced weapons and steam motors, produced passively with Bruno Ironbright.
I am importing everything from New World where I deleted all islands and I still have 10k weapons sitting by.
So everything is handed to me for free.
I get it that some people can't even reach investors which is entirely their fault... in the end the game ain't rocket science.
If people will start using their brain for a change they can accomplish everything.
But if they have lazy brains the game should mitigate this effect by trivializing everything?!?!?!

Why would the make the game complex from the beginning to then mess it up in the end?
Is the world changing and people's IQ dropped since yesterday and nobody told me?

Playing a city builder is a micro management experience and with Docklands, anno became a housing simulator because the "industry equation" is a matter of small importance now.
Now all you are doing is placing houses left and right without having any other worries.
Trivial experience.
Even my grandmother can do it... EASY.

[Brando_0070]

Its not the game that is trivialising everything, that is purely down to you Im afraid.
You didnt have to delete the New World, that again was your choice.
Did you start a new game with the DLC or did you just activate it into a late game city save?
I think I already know the answer to that


You get it that some people are struggling but you just dont care because you are not, Im sure the devs might have a different opinion on that
They want as many people to play and enjoy the game as possible, which at the end of the day will benefit you too.
The more players = the bigger budget to make the next game or maybe to keep adding to this one after season 3.
Should your grand mother be excluded from the game because it is too hard?