🛈 Announcement
Greetings! The For Honor forums are now archived and accessible in read-only mode, please go to the new platform to discuss the game
  1. #1

    The summary of "Some suggestions to improve Lawbringer" thread (he needs some buffs)

    Hi everyone!

    I've been monitoring the activity in my previous thread called "Some suggestions to improve Lawbringer" (you can find the link to the original thread at the end of this text) for a long time now and it seems that everyone who wanted to write a comment about it did, therefore a don't see more activity around my thread. Because of this I decided to summarize the ideas in there therefore giving some ideas and general directions for the developers when they decide to work on Lawbringer. I'm also doing this because I saw quite a lot of threads and thoughts concerning Lawbringer here on the Forums in the past weak or two, so it's clear that a lot of people are interested in a Lawbringer rework. Also, it seems that the moderator activity is better here, than in the "Suggestions and Feedback" section.

    So, let us begin!

    MY SUGGESTIONS: Aim: give Lawbringer more options to adapt to more combat situations and different heroes more easily, there fore making him more dynamic and less static.


    Core changes:

    1. New attack chains. My main problem with LB is that he don't really has any kind of chain-pressure and pressure from neutral, because of his attack pattern. This needs to be changed for sure. LB needs to feint a lot of attacks and therefore he can't keep the pressure on his enemy. His flow is not the best and he can be easily disabled, however on paper he is the disabler. He needs new attack chains to "mend" these problems. In my original thread I said that he needs to have the ability to preform two lights in a row, however after a bit of thinking I realized that it's not that necessary, at least not in all of his attack chains. Since he is a hybrid (probably hybrid between vanguard and heavy) I think that he should have a combination of two and three hit chains. These wouldn't require new animations which is a bonus because it takes less work for the devs so it is easier to implement into the game. These are the following:
    - Light + Light: light chain starter is his current one, light finisher is 500 ms, 13 or 14 damage and undodgeable (undodgeable will be important later).
    - L + H: light chain starter is his current one, the heavy is the unblockable finisher (this would make him access his unblockable easier, therefore he could force a reaction out from the enemies more frequently).
    - H + L: heavy chain starter is his current one (maybe dealing 27 damage instead of 24 but it's not that necessary if the devs implement my other suggestions); light finisher is 500 ms, 13 or 14 damage and undodgeable (since shove can be accessed after any heavy this could translate into a good 50/50 mix-up because according to my version of LB the shove is 500 ms so it is either shove + light for either 9 or 13 damage (depending on attack direction) or the undodgeable light for 13 or 14 damage).
    - H + H + L: the heavy opener and follow-up are his current ones, the light finisher is 500 ms, 13 or 14 damage and undodgeable.
    - H + H + H: this chain should be kept as it is.

    2. Better hit-box. In For Honor Lawbringer has what is seemingly one of the longest weapons in the game, yet LB's range does not that good at all. So the hit-box of his heavies and zone should be wider to clear more minions per swing and hit multiple enemy heroes in ganks if they are close to each other.

    3. A new soft-feint option. Whit this new move LB will be able to soft-feint the startup of every unblockable heavy finisher into a dodge, therefore into a shove. This would definitely improve the character's flow in combat, which is greatly needed to make Lawbringer more flexible and viable in every combat situation (duel and team fight).


    Positive changes:

    1. Speed up shove to 500 ms, both from a dodge and after heavies and zones (after zones: see it later). Every non-chargeable bash in the game is 500 ms if I know it correctly except Shove, Valkyrie's soft-feint and HL's kick, which are 600 ms. This is a bad design choice, especially now, since the HA from shove was removed. Shove was designed with HA in mind right from the get-go, but because they removed it the move lost it's core aspect. Because of this shove is almost useless and flawed, highly predictable and reactable from a dodge. To give an example: a LB (by using shove) can't prevent a JJ from doing his light follow-up after his dodge attack, this attack will hit the LB before the shove could hit the JJ (although the LB dodged the dodge attack). I have experienced this many times. Also, if you predict Gryphon's neutral bash you can't punish it with a shove because Gryphon will interrupt it with his light follow-up. A 500 ms shove would also contribute to a good 50/50 together with LB's new attack chains (mentioned above).

    2. Give HA to top heavy unblockables 300 ms into the move from a chain and immediately after a parry. This would improve LB's team fight capabilities and would guarantee the top unblockable after a light parry, because others can't interrupt you (same as Gryphon).

    3. Allow LB to access shove after a zone attack. This would provide him with better flow.

    4. The zone attack (both the standard one and Make Way) should cost 40 stamina instead of 60. Better stamina management is always a good thing. It allows LB to preform a higher variety of mix-ups.

    5. Speed up Long Arm to 900 ms (it is 1000 ms now), make it feintable and improve the recoveries after a miss. This would give LB the option to initiate pressure from neutral, which would contribute to the offense oriented play style of post CCU For Honor. OR speed up Long Arm to 800 ms and give it HA after 300 or so ms (it is not feintable in this case). If this particular change would guarantee a Long Arm after a GB, than the previous suggestion should make it into the game because Long Arm as a GB punish should be avoided IMO.


    Negative changes:

    Of course I don't want LB to become a "monster". I think I'm quite reasonable and my suggestions so far are grounded in reality. If all of these changes would make it into the game without anything to counter-balance it, LB would be too strong. So my suggestions in this regard are the following:

    1. Impale is only guaranteed on a light parry, no longer on a heavy parry.
    2. Impale after a parry (only after a parry) should cost more stamina (10-15% more).
    3. Long arm should guarantee an UNSAFE (hitting the wake up armor) light instead of an unsafe heavy.
    4. Light riposte should deal 10 damage instead of 12.
    5. Shove + light finishes your chain but leaves LB in frame-advantage (if all of these suggestions would make LB too strong then this particular idea could be changed into Shove + light leaving LB in frame-disadvantage).


    SUGGESTIONS OF OTHERS:

    Others who participated in the conversation (I would like to say thank you for them) suggested thinks like HA on the Longarm (without being feintable) or on follow-up heavies. Some would like to see HA on shove make a return and others suggested that he should have increased damage. (Keep in mind that it's not necessary to implement every single of these changes into the game, I'm just writing them down so the devs can see that there is clearly some interest in reworking LB among the players of For Honor.)
    If you would like to see this suggestions in more detail you can find the link to the original thread below.

    I think that's it! I think that at this point I did everything in my ability to make a Lawbringer rework happen. So I'm not going to write about him in the near future.

    The purpose of this thread is to offer some ideas which could make my favorite hero Lawbringer a bit better and also to make the developers see that a lot of people would like to see him reworked. I truly hope that they see this and they will consider using some ideas mentioned in this tread when they decide to work on LB.
    I whish the best for you developers! Feel free to take the time needed to deliver some amazing reworks (Aramusha, Highlander, Shinobi and of course Lawbringer) nobody is in a rush.

    If you have any thought about all of this feel free to add them below, just please be reasonable and polite about it. Thank you!

    The link to the original thread:
    https://forums.ubisoft.com/showthrea...ove-Lawbringer

    Thanks for reading, have a nice day!
     1 people found this helpful
    Share this post

  2. #2
    Core changes...

    The only chain I think LB needs to get is light>light. Adding 2 hit chains in as well is just kit bloat. Something the devs are not keen on doing. This is why pretty much every new hero either has an infinite of light> heavy and heavy>light or every 2 hit. Or every 3 hit. LB not having a light>light chain was purely done because they didn't want people spamming a quick combo of 400ms light from top into 500ms enhanced chain side lights. Now that he doesn't have a 400ms opening light there's no reason for him to not have that chain.

    I don't particularly agree with the soft feint into dodge shove. You usually do soft feints in kits for some sort of mix up. Ideally said mix up forces the person to parry because of speed of the unblockable or it's undodgable. LB doesn't have this with his finishers. You can react parry them. And dodging into a bash isn't going to force the person to do anything different. Dodge soft feints in specific are usually meant to help in external situations. Since LB's bash is no longer armored and his dodge length isn't super great and gets cut when you input the bash it wouldn't really be helpful there either.


    Positive changes

    So a few things. Not every non charge bash is 500ms. Tiandi's palm is 600ms from neutral. Both of glad's dodge bashes are 600ms as is toe stab. Jorm's neutral bash is 600ms. Nobushi's kick is 566ms. and IIRC BP's zone bash is 700ms. The speed of a bash is largely dictated by the context it is in. Typically 500ms bashes are used to be offensive tools. Neutral bashes often present players of a choice reaction between blocking and dodging. (see Nobushi and Tiandi especially for this.) 700ms bashes are interesting and haven't been used for very much. BP's case his zone was probably to give a choice reaction between it and his buffered bash. In LB's case his bash was purely designed as a punish tool. We saw something similar to this with Goki's potential dodge headbutt.

    I disagree with making LB's dodge bash 500ms because it doesn't really fit the theme it was designed for. However since it lost it's armor it does deserve a buff. At the cost of making his recovery to block (and thus parry) a bit worse I would suggest we let him chain off of his whiffed bash. This makes his bash at the very least like BP's zone since you can chain off of whiff there. But the options after are not particularly strong. but it would let LB at least start something instead of just waiting to CGB or waiting to parry.


    I don't really agree with buffing neutral long arm. It's purely designed as a defensive tool to deal with people who just turtle him externally really hard. Someone can hit stun for LB to guarantee that. And it would then allow himself and an ally a heavy putting massive pressure on the person. I can see an argument be made for giving him an in chain soft feint of long arm that is different from neutral long arm. But it would have to be massively different. And one could easily argue that you're basically crowding the use of a mid chain bash since he already has his mid chain shove.


    Impale is only guaranteed on a light parry, no longer on a heavy parry.

    This doesn't really solve the issue that is caused by having impale as a parry option presents. Merely limits it some what. Aside from the fact that impale can lead to a ledge it lets you wall splat which guarantees LB a top heavy. Which is absurd since in addition to impale +heavy damage you're also blinding and doing stamina damage. Parry into impale in my opinion shouldn't exist. I'd rather give him parry into shove instead. Gives him a second parry counter option like his light riposte But instead of blind and chain mix up you get stamina damage and mix up. This shove (IMO) could also knock someone over if it puts them OOS. But then we'd have to get rid of his ability to do stamina damage and blind with top heavies since he has his absurd OOS punish of two top heavies. Which I would LOVE to see go. But I'm not sure how LB mains would feel about losing that stuff.



    Of your suggested changes aside from giving him a L>L chain the only other changes i'm for are, giving him armor for top heavy finishers, cheapening his zone cost. Chaining into his bash off of zone is an interesting suggestion. But since it chains into nothing else in the first place it kind of just seems like an odd situation to be in. I don't see it being super helpful unless we let him chain off of his zone in general. Personally here are the changes i'd make:

    -Neutral shove can now chain off of whiff

    -Neutral shove now has 600ms recovery to block, 600ms recovery to CGB, and 700ms recovery to dodge. (makes punishing his bash without chaining more consistent but not insanely doable. Dodge bashes remain the most consistent reaction punishes.)

    -Can now chain from light opener into chain light

    -Top heavy finishers now have HA. (400ms before impact if we want it to be used purely as a way to get light parry punishes in team fights. Sooner if we want it to play into it's "mix ups" outside those situations.)

    -Zone now costs 40-45 stamina from 60

    -Parry into impale removed and replaced with a parry counter bash using shove animation

    -Chain shove 400ms delay removed

    -Blind and or stamina damage removed from top heavies. (can maybe be kept for top heavy finisher)
    Share this post

  3. #3
    since i like ya all...here catch im taking break anyway but...im reading stuff and giving ideas...



    https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitive...ffense_is_the/
     1 people found this helpful
    Share this post

  4. #4
    Knight_Raime

    You gave a very insightful answer (I managed to learn something from it), thank you!

    Your suggestions and descriptions make sense, and you also gave valid reasoning to support your ideas.

    It's possible that I suggested a bit much, or my suggestions are not 100% thoughtful (I'm only human after all), I just really would like to see LB buffed because he is my favorite hero (and main) in the game, and since I play For Honor he only received nerfs. Furthermore, after the CCU I feel like that his design puts him in a disadvantage, you can't really do a lot of things with him, you can't really be that creative with him, he does not fit into the game's direction post CCU.

    About some of your arguments:
    1. I personally think that Impale being guaranteed only on a light parry solves most of the problems with the move (I'm aware that many people would like to see that move gone) because since you could do it after a light parry, the punish you get after a wallsplat is not greater than the top unblockable + quick justice finisher. And with the ongoing map reworks the devs are removing most of the traps and they closing of (at least some parts of) ledges so it would be rare that LB gets a "one-shot" kill (and most of the time some careless team mates will mess up your punish anyways).

    2. I can agree with the idea that LB's top heavies should not deal stamina damage, however the stun (blind) is necessary IMO because that allows him to maintain at least a some kind of (minimum) pressure. Without it LB players will need to feint even more attacks. And it is also (I know that this is a weak argument but still) the part of his identity.

    3. Many LB mains would be furious if the devs would remove his big OOS punish.

    That's all. I can't argue with the rest of your suggestions as they really logical and I also don't want to argue because I respect others opinions (if they are well constructed like yours).
    Share this post

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by Csodaszarvas_G Go to original post
    Knight_Raime

    You gave a very insightful answer (I managed to learn something from it), thank you!

    Your suggestions and descriptions make sense, and you also gave valid reasoning to support your ideas.

    It's possible that I suggested a bit much, or my suggestions are not 100% thoughtful (I'm only human after all), I just really would like to see LB buffed because he is my favorite hero (and main) in the game, and since I play For Honor he only received nerfs. Furthermore, after the CCU I feel like that his design puts him in a disadvantage, you can't really do a lot of things with him, you can't really be that creative with him, he does not fit into the game's direction post CCU.

    About some of your arguments:
    1. I personally think that Impale being guaranteed only on a light parry solves most of the problems with the move (I'm aware that many people would like to see that move gone) because since you could do it after a light parry, the punish you get after a wallsplat is not greater than the top unblockable + quick justice finisher. And with the ongoing map reworks the devs are removing most of the traps and they closing of (at least some parts of) ledges so it would be rare that LB gets a "one-shot" kill (and most of the time some careless team mates will mess up your punish anyways).

    2. I can agree with the idea that LB's top heavies should not deal stamina damage, however the stun (blind) is necessary IMO because that allows him to maintain at least a some kind of (minimum) pressure. Without it LB players will need to feint even more attacks. And it is also (I know that this is a weak argument but still) the part of his identity.

    3. Many LB mains would be furious if the devs would remove his big OOS punish.

    That's all. I can't argue with the rest of your suggestions as they really logical and I also don't want to argue because I respect others opinions (if they are well constructed like yours).
    1) I'm actually in the minority. AFAIK i've not seen any competitive player ask for a removal of parry into impale. Putting it on light parry only would definitely reduce the issue parry into impale causes but I personally don't think reducing it's presence is enough. IMO having parry into impale is just as bad as if you could get Crashing charge off of a parry.

    2) I am fine with his blind existing on things like his parry riposte or his top heavy finisher since they enhance weaker aspects of his kit. I actually like blind as a mechanic but the devs sure don't. My problem is where some of the blind exists in his kit.

    3) I don't want to remove double top heavy. I just don't want double top heavy to pause stamina. The blind in that situation is not really important.
    Share this post

  6. #6
    1) I'm actually in the minority. AFAIK i've not seen any competitive player ask for a removal of parry into impale. Putting it on light parry only would definitely reduce the issue parry into impale causes but I personally don't think reducing it's presence is enough. IMO having parry into impale is just as bad as if you could get Crashing charge off of a parry.

    2) I am fine with his blind existing on things like his parry riposte or his top heavy finisher since they enhance weaker aspects of his kit. I actually like blind as a mechanic but the devs sure don't. My problem is where some of the blind exists in his kit.

    3) I don't want to remove double top heavy. I just don't want double top heavy to pause stamina. The blind in that situation is not really important.
    I see. Thank you for the clarification.
    Share this post

  7. #7
    If any of you have some other ideas feel free to write them down.
    Share this post

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by Csodaszarvas_G Go to original post
    If any of you have some other ideas feel free to write them down.
    I'm not an LB main(30 reps) but I'll share some brainstorms and you can take what you like. These will focus more on positive changes(buffs). Sorry if I've repeated what's already been said:

    1) Give LB the complete 3-hit chain set. Why? This would make his basic offense less predictable and help make him more adaptable as he would have the chain he needs for any situation rather than being forced to work around a limited chain set. The same can be said for other heroes with limited chain sets(not that all heroes should have 3-hit chains, ofc). Also, this saves players trying to remember what chains a hero/LB does and doesn't have.


    2) Hyper armour on at least the first 2 heavies.
    Why? This would allow LB to take advantage of his high HP and trade. This helps as his heavies are slow and easily parried, and would compliment his role a counter attacker. I don't think HA on his heavy finishers is necessary since they are already unblockable, not as slow as charged heavies, and give plenty of pressure but we do have Testing Grounds to put any speculation to rest.


    3) Long Arm changes
    3a) Feintable
    3b) Soft feint LA with a heavy
    3c) Reduced recovery on miss
    3d) Recovery cancel for normal heavies, lights, zone attack, and Light Riposte

    Why?
    These changes would make Long Arm more offensive in 1v1s and add to LB's offensive options. Making LA a recovery cancel would help improve attack variety during chains in 1vX scenarios as well as 1v1s.


    4) Normal Heavy Soft-Feints:
    4a) Shove(without the dodge input since the GB input would provide quicker access)
    4b) Light Riposte. This soft-feint could be 400ms light from either the top, like PK and Raider, or a side light from the same side(not multi-directional).
    4c) Long Arm (sped up when soft-feinted if possible)

    Why?
    Shove and Light Riposte would be chain starters so these soft-feints would give good pressure. A sped Long Arm as a soft-feint would prevent it from being redundant and be an additional offensive option.


    5) Zone Attack changes:
    5a) Make neutral Zone & parry punish Zone chain starters. Why? More chain starters would give any hero more options to add pressure.

    5b) Make neutral Zone undodgeable. Why? This would be good to stop those who like to dodge all the time, especially on red, and, thus, help improve LB's role as a counter attacker.

    5c) Make Zone a recovery cancel for normal lights and heavies, Light Riposte, and Shove. Why? Accessing a zone attack during chains helps improve attack variety for 1v1s and improve hero viability in 1vX scenarios.

    5d) Zone attacks for all heroes should be standardised to the cost of every heavy, light, and/or bash thrown. In LB's case, his zone would cost only 12 stamina(as of Feb 2021). Why? The cost of zone attacks has always been too high and they greatly reduce a hero's offensive options when used. Most zones, especially singe hit ones, normally come from the same direction so they are unlikely to be considered OP. Over-tuned moves should be nerfed in other ways since stamina is a shared pool. High stamina costs for zones are counter-intuitive when the moves are needed for 1vX scenarios; also, reducing stamina cost for zones would help reduce the necessity for revenge.


    6) Swift Justice Finisher changes:
    Make Swift Justice Finisher a guaranteed light for
    6a) opening lights
    6b) all top heavies(yes, damage tweaks would apply)
    6c) change the name to Swift Justice Strike for obvious reasons

    Why? These changes would improve access to LB's unblockable heavy finishers.


    All of these changes combined may be too much too soon so, again, take what changes you like and feel free to offer tweaks. I may edit this post if more ideas come to mind.
    Share this post

  9. #9
    Also: make shove punishable. In current state its unpunishable by some heroes.
    Increase the recovery times.
    Share this post

  10. #10
    Soldier_of_Dawn

    First of all, thanks for your participation in this conversation, it's good to see that more and more people give ideas about LB because to me it means that a good portion in the community would like to see him buffed.

    I highlight some of your ideas, which I like:

    3) Long Arm changes
    3a) Feintable
    3b) Soft feint LA with a heavy
    3c) Reduced recovery on miss
    3d) Recovery cancel for normal heavies, lights, zone attack, and Light Riposte
    I never thought about Longarm as a recovery cancel move, it really seems interesting to me. A unique idea in my eyes, although it would require extensive testing in a possible TG. Soft-feinting it into a heavy could be a bit problematic, because it would require a new animation (if not more) and in the current situation (the virus and all) it seems unlikely to me that the devs will make new animations (but they are welcomed to surprise me). That's why I made no suggestions in my original post which would need new animations.

    5) Zone Attack changes:
    5a) Make neutral Zone & parry punish Zone chain starters. Why? More chain starters would give any hero more options to add pressure.

    5b) Make neutral Zone undodgeable. Why? This would be good to stop those who like to dodge all the time, especially on red, and, thus, help improve LB's role as a counter attacker.
    These are also really good. I don't really need to explain them because you already did. I'm only going to add one more thing to it. The undodgeable zone would make the LB vs Tiandi or JJ matchup more easier for LB, because the just mentioned heroes have a lot of I-frames on their dodges and I personally feel that LB struggles against that.
     1 people found this helpful
    Share this post