1. #1
    Xiolablu3's Avatar Senior Member
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    While looking for quotes on the pitfires cockpit I found this. Its about the ISraelis making up servicable aircraft from scrappped planes and spare parts, also planes which were allies in WW2 facing each other, very interesting read :

    Spitfires :-

    http://101squadron.com/101real/spitfires.html

    Mustangs :-

    http://101squadron.com/101real/mustangs.html

    Me109/S199 :-

    http://101squadron.com/101real/s-199s.html

    Main Page :-

    http://101squadron.com/101/aircraft.html

    Lots of Friendly fire incidents on RAF aircraft in there.
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  2. #2
    tigertalon's Avatar Senior Member
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    quote from link:
    In mock dog-fights, we concluded that the Messerschmitt could out-climb, out-dive and out-zoom the Spitfire and Mustang. The Spitfire could out-turn the Messerschmitt, the most important manoeuvre in air combat, and both could out-turn the Mustang. The Mustang was the fastest, the Messerschmitt the slowest, though there was not much in it. The Mustang had the best visibility, important for a fighter aircraft, the Messerschmitt the worst. The Spitfire cockpit fitted like a glove, the Messerschmitt like a strait-jacket, the Mustang like a too comfortable armchair. The Spitfire had two 20-mm cannon and four .303-in machine guns (sic; actually, the 101 Squadron Spits had two .50s, not four .303s), the Mustang six 12.7-mm machine guns (i.e. .50-calibre), and the Messerschmitt two 20-mm cannon and two 7.92-mm machine guns (sic; actually two 13.1-mm machine guns) synchronised to fire through the arc of the propeller.... Despite the pros and cons the Spitfire was everyone's first choice. (Levett 1994)
    Interesting read, ty for sharing

    One question: ...the Messerschmitt (had) two 20-mm cannon... A typo or was nose cannon removed for some reason?
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  3. #3
    The 109's delivered to Israel were Czechoslovakian S-199's, if I remember correctly. Different armaments, and poor engines.
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  4. #4
    Ratsack's Avatar Senior Member
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    Yes, the 109 was the Avia S-199 'Mezec' (Mule). It was meant to be the nastiest version of the 109 ever to see the light of day. It was the outcome of an idle Czech war industry, spare G-14 airframe components, and a warehouse fire that destroyed all their DB engines.

    Some bright spark thought it might be a good idea to shoehorn Junkers 211 F engines (for He 111 H bombers) in the thing in place of the DB 605 AM. The result is the misbegotten by-blow of a Heinkel and a Messerschmitt, known to aviation history as the Mezec.

    I understand some Israelis managed to score kills in this thing. There may even have been an ace among them.

    'orrible.

    Ratsack
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  5. #5
    Xiolablu3's Avatar Senior Member
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    Yes they were made up from bits of all sorts of planes and named S-199's. (Apparantly the resulting plane was very poor and not liked by the Israeli pilots)


    They will have had the same cockpit as the usual 109's thats why I used the quotes for the other thread.

    EVen tho the Jumo engines were from a He111, they were obviously good in some ways if they could outzoom and outdive a Mustang and outclimb a Spitfire.

    Lots of good info on comparisons.

    How in the freindly fire incident vs the Tempest 6's, the SPitfire IX's had no trouble in a dogfight (shot down 1 and damaged others), but were easily outrun.

    Just like the game.
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  6. #6
    Originally posted by tigertalon:
    One question: ...the Messerschmitt (had) two 20-mm cannon... A typo or was nose cannon removed for some reason?
    I presume the Jumo engine fitted could not take a cannon through the engine shaft. Funny thing about the Jumo they fitted, IIRC it revolved in the opposite direction the DB engine did.

    No matter, they still put it in, and the Israelis were desperate enough to buy that... thing.
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  7. #7
    Xiolablu3's Avatar Senior Member
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    Yes I believe in these S199's (They were not really Messerscmitts, just used a mash up of MesserSchmitt parts, Willy would probably have scrapped them all) had 20mm cannon in Gondolas under the wings.
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  8. #8
    When you have no air force even an ugly 109-Heinkel spawn looks good.

    Although to be honest I rather like the look of the S-199. It's like the 109's grandbaby.
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  9. #9
    Xiolablu3's Avatar Senior Member
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    You can see the gondolas, but they look like they have the cannon removed, unless they are short barrelled Hispanos.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avia_S-199



    If anyone has any better pictures, I would love to see them.
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  10. #10
    Xiolablu3's Avatar Senior Member
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    http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/s199.html

    I just realised why they had no cannon firing through the engine, the Jumo will have had no space there for a cannon... (Sorry I see Kurfurt already said that)
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