1. #1

    Jörmungandr rework- identity change from stamina bully

    I think Jörmungandr is right now a design flow: he was built on damaging the stamina bar, which means he either stops offense, or it means that his entire identity will be as useless as it is now. Since I don't think it is solvable because this idea is doomed at the core, I want to present an alternative:


    1. Hammar Slam deals 30 damage (down from 35). He will get it more often with the changes.
    2. Hammar Slam gives frame advantage to the Jörmungandr, and resets the stamina for both the hero and the victim.
    3. The punch moves do not deal stamina damage anymore, only pause regen for one second if the opponent is not already exhausted. it does not unbalance exhausted opponents anymore.
    4. All punch moves leave a 2 seconds long blind on the target. The parry, neutral punch and chain punch moves chain into the finishers, but neither is guaranteed anymore. The guardbreak punch chains into a throw or a not guaranteed finisher. On contact, the Heavy Finisher from either direction places a 1 second blind on the target. The blind itself might be a very light blur with the sound effect, it doesn't have to disable the hud.
    5. New property for the punch moves: when they hit a target who is blinded, it will floor them into the guaranteed Hammar Slam. It counts for both Jörm's own moves and any other kind of blind.
    6. Light finisher recovery can be canceled into Heavy Opener.
    7. Forward dodge heavy gets a smaller travel distance, but faster speed.
    8. T3 does not exhaust, but leave a 3 seconds blind on the opponent instead.


    I think this would fit the game more, but I am of course open to discussions, as always.
    Share this post

  2. #2
    Jorm getting FA at all after a slam is a good idea. Or at least just better recovery in general. He can't use that move while being ganked or in a team fight atm because of that. His Shield feat is the only reason you can sometimes manage it.
    Blind is a mechanic with a lot of potential that I wish the devs would actually try to make work. But I don't see that happening considering the lengths they've gone to remove it almost entirely.

    I like that you can chain from the chain punch in your suggestions. This would be an interesting way to deal with his frame problems a little. I'm pretty sure his neutral bash can already chain into his finishers. Even if they didn't it wouldn't solve the problems of the move though. The problem with letting his light chain finisher recovery be canceled into his opener is that it might bring back the old issue on the CCU where the opponent couldn't do anything but wait since trying to attack would result in trading which is super beneficial for Jorm since the longer he maintains FA the better.

    I think a better move to do that with would be his neutral bash (if they made it better,) or his chain punch if we consider your chain punch suggestion. I suggest the bashes because they leave counter play open and don't let someone just default because you ended your chain with a light. Plus if his bashes end up being something like "land x amount to trip them" the bashes would have value constantly which means there would be an actual choice between going for damage and going for bashes like I think how he was intended to be played.

    The problem with blind=trip aside from the blind property is that it would confuse people. Now if we had runes building up on Jorm somehow or under the enemy effected somehow that would be a better way to track when Jorm can knock someone over and not make base game mechanics confusing.
    Share this post

  3. #3
    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    Jorm getting FA at all after a slam is a good idea. Or at least just better recovery in general. He can't use that move while being ganked or in a team fight atm because of that. His Shield feat is the only reason you can sometimes manage it.
    Blind is a mechanic with a lot of potential that I wish the devs would actually try to make work. But I don't see that happening considering the lengths they've gone to remove it almost entirely.

    I like that you can chain from the chain punch in your suggestions. This would be an interesting way to deal with his frame problems a little. I'm pretty sure his neutral bash can already chain into his finishers. Even if they didn't it wouldn't solve the problems of the move though. The problem with letting his light chain finisher recovery be canceled into his opener is that it might bring back the old issue on the CCU where the opponent couldn't do anything but wait since trying to attack would result in trading which is super beneficial for Jorm since the longer he maintains FA the better.

    I think a better move to do that with would be his neutral bash (if they made it better,) or his chain punch if we consider your chain punch suggestion. I suggest the bashes because they leave counter play open and don't let someone just default because you ended your chain with a light. Plus if his bashes end up being something like "land x amount to trip them" the bashes would have value constantly which means there would be an actual choice between going for damage and going for bashes like I think how he was intended to be played.

    The problem with blind=trip aside from the blind property is that it would confuse people. Now if we had runes building up on Jorm somehow or under the enemy effected somehow that would be a better way to track when Jorm can knock someone over and not make base game mechanics confusing.

    The landed neutral punch chains into the finishers already. I think even the missed does since it can be used for the Heavy finisher+Hammar Slam punish, it is only worthwhile to make the guardbreak not always guaranteed.

    Yes, the problem with blind is probably comes into play with how many heroes have relatively easy access to it, which would be very confusing to fight against, and I think would open up many 100 to 0 combos, even with the lower damage (my first thought is instantly Stampade Charge and Jörm working together). Maybe some other kind of debuff, a completely new one that only Jorm can place, would work better. This rune thing sounds like a fun idea, if it would be a new clear visual effect, that would really help people.

    I think the chain light recovery being canceled into a heavy would be a good anticipation to prevent the enemy from light attacking, but the heavy openers are relatively bad, and they would be the only move you can use for this. I think it would be easier to deal with as the defender, I already see how the "casual players" can not deal with this.


    I really hope they will do something soon though. The entire stamina bully thing is deserved to be put in the bin, and she needs something else to be threatening. People don't play her because they really like this- they play her because she is very cool design wise.
    Share this post

  4. #4
    I've been playing her because i but she looks cool and her execute is hilarious but man she sucks. It's also forcing me to become better at the game. I'm only rep 4 with her and rep 11 overall.

    Her stamina bully moves are a joke. It often costs more stam than stam damage done. I only use her bashes occassionally to throw someone off or if they overextended thier stam management. But when ganking she charges people revenge so fast if you don't take care. Her short reach makes her struggle a little as aniganker

    Her lights are terrible! Not worth the potential parry punish and so... well her heavies are the only tools she has that matter due to faints.

    Her light finisher is too slow to catch dodges so undogable is a funny thing to have there. Her light starter can be a way to get to her heavy finisher, again so that I can faint. But do that too much and you get parried. Her light animation is way to obvious being a punch vs a swing.

    I feel like she should either be made a real stam bully or they let go of that idea al together and give her a knock down like cent.

    One thing that would be nice is if her heavies did more damage.
    Share this post

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by Goat_of_Vermund Go to original post
    The landed neutral punch chains into the finishers already. I think even the missed does since it can be used for the Heavy finisher+Hammar Slam punish, it is only worthwhile to make the guardbreak not always guaranteed.

    Yes, the problem with blind is probably comes into play with how many heroes have relatively easy access to it, which would be very confusing to fight against, and I think would open up many 100 to 0 combos, even with the lower damage (my first thought is instantly Stampade Charge and Jörm working together). Maybe some other kind of debuff, a completely new one that only Jorm can place, would work better. This rune thing sounds like a fun idea, if it would be a new clear visual effect, that would really help people.

    I think the chain light recovery being canceled into a heavy would be a good anticipation to prevent the enemy from light attacking, but the heavy openers are relatively bad, and they would be the only move you can use for this. I think it would be easier to deal with as the defender, I already see how the "casual players" can not deal with this.


    I really hope they will do something soon though. The entire stamina bully thing is deserved to be put in the bin, and she needs something else to be threatening. People don't play her because they really like this- they play her because she is very cool design wise.
    I was thinking of just having the bashes mark people and not have them do any additional effect until he's got x amount of runes. Then his next bash floors them. The problem is I cant figure out if the runs should behave like a meter (ala once it's full he can bash anyone and knock them over.) Or if the runes should stick to the individual effected. That way said player knows they're the one that will be floored. There are positives and negatives to both ideas. I like the former because that means Jorm in general is a threat to anyone near him and not just someone he's been bullying. But I can also see how frustrating it would feel to return to a fight only to be floored instantly (kind of like what happens with revenge in extended fights these days.)

    On CCU his enhanced light finishers being what they were meant if you tried to attack to beat his next light combo he could trade with an opening heavy and retain FA. As long as your suggestion doesn't cause that situation to happen again I'd support it. But I still personally think the recovery cancel would be better with a bash instead. Or maybe a heavy finisher instead.
    Share this post

  6. #6
    I agree on the point of this thread, of all the fighters in the game, none are as far away from its original description then what Hulda has become after big waves of nerfs to the stamina drains.

    Solution is simple; buff the stamina drain back up or, change her description to more accuratlyreprsent her current state or, redesign the fighter.
    Share this post

  7. #7
    We should change his identity to the ball crusher. So literally every attack will be aimed at the opponents genitalia area AND will have a 3 second stun effect.

    We'll start off with his hammer slam to the balls.

    Nest we have a lowblow to the nutsack

    Then the next attack can be a kick in the jewels.

    Alternatively, we can proceed with a knee in the teabag

    etc...

    Hahaha sorry guys couldn't resist
    Share this post

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    I was thinking of just having the bashes mark people and not have them do any additional effect until he's got x amount of runes. Then his next bash floors them. The problem is I cant figure out if the runs should behave like a meter (ala once it's full he can bash anyone and knock them over.) Or if the runes should stick to the individual effected. That way said player knows they're the one that will be floored. There are positives and negatives to both ideas. I like the former because that means Jorm in general is a threat to anyone near him and not just someone he's been bullying. But I can also see how frustrating it would feel to return to a fight only to be floored instantly (kind of like what happens with revenge in extended fights these days.)

    On CCU his enhanced light finishers being what they were meant if you tried to attack to beat his next light combo he could trade with an opening heavy and retain FA. As long as your suggestion doesn't cause that situation to happen again I'd support it. But I still personally think the recovery cancel would be better with a bash instead. Or maybe a heavy finisher instead.
    If it is only one person, that person can just run away until it is cleansed. And it would be hard to track especially with more than one jorm. If the jorm is buffed, you can just run as well. I think my idea would be the simplest: first punch marks, second in x seconds floors.

    On second thought, I still think it should be a stun, not a long one, just enough for a single try to floor the enemy. That would fit perfectly (the slam can be nerfed a bit further in damage if it becomes too easy, though 30 damage for landing two quite punishable moves is not much). Maybe an 1000ms stun is enough for any punch.

    Still disagree on the punch. Light-light-stun-light-floor just sounds too oppressive. The heavy would trade with the automatic light spam back, but it is quite easy to counter.
    Share this post

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by Goat_of_Vermund Go to original post
    If it is only one person, that person can just run away until it is cleansed. And it would be hard to track especially with more than one jorm. If the jorm is buffed, you can just run as well. I think my idea would be the simplest: first punch marks, second in x seconds floors.

    On second thought, I still think it should be a stun, not a long one, just enough for a single try to floor the enemy. That would fit perfectly (the slam can be nerfed a bit further in damage if it becomes too easy, though 30 damage for landing two quite punishable moves is not much). Maybe an 1000ms stun is enough for any punch.

    Still disagree on the punch. Light-light-stun-light-floor just sounds too oppressive. The heavy would trade with the automatic light spam back, but it is quite easy to counter.
    The problem is your suggestion would be easily abusable due to hitstun/block stun setups.

    And of course that would be oppressive. I made the suggestion on what recovery cancel move without your idea of blinds leading to flooring. As been my suggestions for him this entire thread.

    And yes you can counter a jorm doing that by just not going for a light after and then parrying if he commits. That was true on the ccu as well. The issue wasn't that it wasnt counterable. The issue is jorms current kit always having FA is dumb. And that's why he was neutured.

    No one likes having to wait to do anything. Which is a big reason why I'm not for giving everyone a dodge attack as a way to counter bashes. People auto dodging out of combos stifles offense and forces you to be defensive for trying to go offensive. We'd need to change how FA/FD is right now and fix dodge attacks so they have less abusibility to make that suggestion work.
    Share this post