Junior Member
Hello everyone. After playing the new hero, and playing against the new hero Gryphon quite a bit, I would like to offer some suggestions.
I have seen the comment that Gryphon is highly overtuned, and I would tend to agree with that statement. I would not go out and say that he is blatantly overpowered in a 1v1 situation, but in casual matchmaking (which is all that there is, as there is no ranked dominion to play where single pick is enforced) where there are 3 or 4 gryphons on the opposite team, the match is all but unplayable, especially for newer players. I love to see new players coming to For Honor, but I absolutely hate seeing them get discouraged and quit the game because live matchmatching and current heroes kits and playstyles are just too horrendous, even for some veteran players.
Let me elaborate. Gryphon has everything available to him in his kit with the exception of an unblockable move that directly deals damage. I.E, something like Raiders zone for example. Barring that, he has a purely neutral shove that confirms damage, an unblockable kick that confirms 28 unboosted, and undodgeable chain finishers. To put it shortly, he has an answer for everyone other hero and every playstyle. Do I think that this is necessarily a bad thing? No. I would consider many heroes to have an answer for most if not all other heroes, such as Kensei, Tiandi, and Black Prior for example. However, the way in which those previously listed heroes go about dealing with threats, and Gryphon, is not the same. The closest thing I can draw is Tiandi's palm strike. But that is not quite the same, being a neutral bash. I will explain.
Tiandi's palm strike nets you one light and ends your chain. The light, if you choose to throw it, is locked to the top. The heavy you may throw as the chain finisher following a palm strike is also a top attack. Neither is unblockable.
Gryphon's neutral bash nets you a light from any direction, with the option to chain into a kick, which confirms a heavy, or an undodgeable chain finisher light. OR, an uninterruptable heavy. If Tiandi's palm strike into light could chain into a follow up top heavy or kick, I would say that they are generally equal, but it doesn't. So, as far as I know, Gryphon is the only hero with this tool.
As much as I hate the turtle playstyle, and even more so heroes that have nothing native to counter this playstyle (Aramusha), I do not think that Gryphon provides an answer in a fair manner.
I suggest that a couple of changes be made to Gryphon, with a few alternatives. Disclaimer: I have not bothered to remember the exact names of the moves, but I am sure my descriptions will be adequate.
Neutral Bash
Either:
Lengthen timing from 600 m/s to 800 m/s to allow for a better reaction from neutral stance. I know that For Honor is supposed to be a "read based" game, but there is a point where reading is replaced by pure guessing, and I would consider this scenario and hero one of them. Gambling should be discouraged.
Or:
Lock light follow-up to top attack position, similar to Tiandi. This again allows for players to make a read on whether or not they think the opponent will commit to the throw on a whiff or not, not guessing if they're going to throw it, then having a 33% chance to get the direction right.
Or
Require a dodge prior to the shove, similar to Conqueror, Lawbringer, Black Prior, Etc, allowing for a GB punish/higher chance to dodge
Chain Kick
Either:
Slow timing from 500 m/s to 600 m/s (give or take). This allows players a chance to get out of the way without having to succumb to guessing. As I mentioned earlier, Gryphon may throw any light or heavy from any direction, or throw a kick. I would count that as four possible alternatives, one per each direction, and the unblockable kick. You cannot read that, you can only guess.
Or
Reduce damage from chain kick into guaranteed heavy from 28 to 24. In a game where feats and perks exist to keep players alive at minimal health, I think this would provide players with the "second chance" so to speak when getting ganked to build a little extra revenge, or reposition/counterattack.
FEATS
Seeing as that we all saw how Warmongers feats nearly broke 4v4 entirely on release, it is a bit hard to see how the feats of Gryphon fell into the same boat without being noticed after the fact.
The gist of the feats is mostly the same. And they generally apply for all healing feats, not just Gryphons. (Remember Jiang Jun?)
Tier 2
I don't think that the amount healed for this feat is a big deal, I would rate it right there with second wind and JJ's soothing mist, but the problem with it lies in two things.
One: This feat negates all bleed/fire damage, on top of healing the 20 HP that it's supposed to. In my opinion, it should do a mix of the two without negating tier 4 feats for the entire team (teammates hit by nail bomb/fire flask being completely restored).
Suggestion
If hit by bleed/fire, negate the effects for self and nearby teammates with no additional healing properties. Players that are not being affected by bleed/fire heal for the normal amount of HP within the AoE.
Tier two feats should not defeat tier four feats, much less for the entire team.
Two: It can be used four times in quick succession if the team consists of only Gryphons. Not saying that this happens a lot, but even two gryphons running the standard healing feats makes a huge difference.
Suggestion:
If the prior change will not be made, implement a single pick healing feat feature when multiple same heroes are chosen. This prevents a swarm of Gryphons with healing feats reviving themselves to near full fighting strength regardless of scenario.
Tier 3:
Same problems as above, with bleed/fire being completely cleansed with an additional 20 HP being healed in the AoE, only this time with 30 DMG being applied to the enemy, in an extremely quick fashion.
Suggestion:
Reduce damage from 30 to 15, while retaining current healing properties
Or
Retaining current damage value, with the aforementioned healing changes. Either negate bleed/fire with no additional HP gain, or lock the feat to a single pick in a team with more than one Gryphon.
I don't think that the Tier four feat needs to be changed honestly, considering that LB get's a volley of four bombs dealing equal/more damage, as well as last laugh/spear storm etc.
Like I said, these changes should apply to all healing feats in my opinion, not just gryphons. If JJ's was nerfed into the ground, why does Gryphon get to be the exception?
I've been typing for some time now, and I'm sure that I've missed some crucial points or overthought some changes, so I am open to suggestions and criticism. Let me know what you all think. I would love for For Honor to be a more friendly, slightly skill based game, than a "noob destroyer" guessing game. Thanks for reading everyone!
Senior Member
Originally Posted by TheAllfather27 Go to original post
600ms is already pretty reactable and counts as slow, turning that in to 800ms will just make the move completly useless.
The second thing is also not needed for a hero that already has just hard time opening up a decent opponent
And the thried makes really no sense, 600ms already counts as slow from neutral. (If you make it require a forward dodge it will be rather useless and side dodges will just turn it in to a hyper defensive tool.
Not to mention it would go aginst the nature of how the move is designed.
I only really see a effort to gutter this tool here, nothing more really, no one in there right mind would suggestion his bash to get this stuff.
Originally Posted by TheAllfather27;15306155
[B
600ms combo bashes arent a great, idea you can take a look at valk for that, everyone can just reaction dodge that, only catch is that her recovery is so low that you have to make a read to punish her for it which opens you up to a GB.
Also dont see a reason to reduce the dmg of a finsiher heavy to the dmg of most neutral heavys, thats kinda non sense in my opinion.
Also this stament of yours: You cannot read that, you can only guess.
You dont really seem to be aware what a read actaully is.
Yomi (literally "reading") is a Japanese term meaning "reading the mind of the opponent", and is essentially an intangible asset required in fighting games. It's the ability to know what one's opponent is going to do, and act appropriately, whether achieved by "conditioning" the opponent to act one way, and then acting in another way, or simply working one's way into the head of the opponent.
In plain english it means your guess what you opponent does next, so your sentence really makes no real sense.
Junior Member
Gaser,
You would consider Gryphon as a hero that has a "hard time" opening other players up? I think right now he is the number one hero, if not at least high on the tier list, of opening players up. When you compare to heroes that have little to no moves that can actually open a player up (Aramusha, Shinobi, Nobushi, Zhanhu), having a 600 m/s neutral bash that nets a light into a chain lasting beyond 2 attacks total seems like a great opener. Enhanced by the fact that there is no definitive way to tell what direction the follow up is coming from.
I suggested the reduction in damage because it's guaranteed provided you are not interrupted from an outside player. This is more for a 1v1 scenario. A guaranteed second light into a kick that guarantees a heavy for a total of 43 damage is staggering, especially taking into account hitstun/1vX scenarios). I thought the point of the CCU was to move away from the whole "one mistake and you're pretty much done for" scenario. 42 damage with no possible counter mid chain (because you cannot block the second light or the kick, or the heavy if you get hit by the kick) is a bit too high. Shaving off 4 damage doesn't seem extreme to me, particularly in ganks. If it were a true heavy finisher thrown from a chain that could be blocked/parried, I would be fine with the current damage honestly.
Promoting neutral dodging to escape a shove and the rest of the chain is a bad idea. It is particularly bad for heroes that have no dodge followup.
When I make the point of reading versus guessing, I mean this:
You cannot make your opponent do what you want most, or even some of the time. With certain heroes, not at all. Engagements typically do not last long enough even after the CCU to get an accurate read on what you think, after observing or trying to observe, what the opponent is likely to do. If you had a slight idea from pervious encounters with that player, I would consider that reading. When you have absolutely no idea because you cannot fight long enough to make a read or perhaps you haven't seen that hero for a majority of the fight, you are forced to guess. Not based off of the opponents playstyle. If Gryphon does not have to move to shove like LB/Conq/BP, and is not locked to a single direction or chain finisher like Tiandi/BP, why do we not advocate for the aforementioned heroes to get expanded kits similar to Gryphons. Gryphon does not even lack dodge attacks or short i-frames. The only true drawback I can think of is being unable to feint his dodge attacks when compared to other heroes.
Do I think that 600 m/s is particularly fast? Not entirely. Is it possible to counter Gryphon as is? Sure. Does he do too much damage? Debatable. My point is to advocate for the health of the game as a whole, and particularly newer players, of which I have seen a lot lately which is fantastic. Having people leave the match/refuse to play with multiple Gryphons is not healthy for the game, and must surely mean something isn't exactly right. He is a powerhouse in 4's in the same way WM was on release, just inverted. Gryphon's moveset may need only slight tuning/reworking. But his feats are a different story.
Anyways, thanks for taking the time to read the whole thing and for the insight as well.
Cheers!
