1. #31
    MayanKingGaming's Avatar Senior Member
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    mr bdur did you see the second link? is interesting, as it shows how can be detrimental to our peripherals.

    Yeah sure you can do that also hehe , anticipating, but that could be like a 50/50 haha
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  2. #32
    i still remember many months ago when your ego was hurt about me saying some nonsense about lights when you were on console, but anyways i agree, lights are too accessible and by that i mean they are deadly efficient at disrupting mix-ups/attacks, i wouldn't remove the hidden indicator but i'd reduce the overall damage of neutral lights by... let's say 30% ?, and go as far as to reduce the damage of SOME zone attacks even further than they've already been going in CCU.

    sometimes, its really frustrating to see someone run around with 100+ ping, it makes every attack they throw seem even more cut and faster albeit the attack having the 100ms lag compensation window, but to end it quick, i myself face no problems with the CCU, i think its fine, sure lights are really easy to use effectively but its whatever, buff raider and ill be happy
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  3. #33
    MrBdur's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Okt0g00N Go to original post
    i still remember many months ago when your ego was hurt about me saying some nonsense about lights when you were on console, but anyways i agree, lights are too accessible and by that i mean they are deadly efficient at disrupting mix-ups/attacks, i wouldn't remove the hidden indicator but i'd reduce the overall damage of neutral lights by... let's say 30% ?, and go as far as to reduce the damage of SOME zone attacks even further than they've already been going in CCU.

    sometimes, its really frustrating to see someone run around with 100+ ping, it makes every attack they throw seem even more cut and faster albeit the attack having the 100ms lag compensation window, but to end it quick, i myself face no problems with the CCU, i think its fine, sure lights are really easy to use effectively but its whatever, buff raider and ill be happy
    Oh yeah Okt0g00n I remember you. I don't remember my ego being hurt but I do remember you spouting misinformation as facts.

    Anyways, yes, throughout this conversation I realize that removing the hidden indicators is a bad idea. Reducing light attack damage further on many heroes would be a welcome change though. I think that would be awesome.
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  4. #34
    EvoX.'s Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    But you can absolutely dodge BP's neutral bash on a read and get a GB. There is video proof of this.
    Damn, there is video proof of something that 99% of the time does not happen, a fringe case which in practice is completely useless. I guess that means it's fine the way it is.

    You know what actually happens in a duel? You pick a completely random time to dodge, since you have no idea when it's going to come because Prior is one of the few heroes that have no tell when you're supposed to make a read (effectively making this not an actual read, more like a pure guess), you dodge, Prior player sees this and reaction punishes with a bash. So then you either continue with this completely ineffective strat or you accept you're never getting that GB. Then it's back to GB vs unpunishable bash.

    I absolutely despise being forced to play like this. One of the main reasons I barely play this mess of a game anymore.

    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    The only reason i'm addressing this part is because it goes hand in hand with my previous statement regarding lights. They're not unreactable to everyone. It's not just reaction monsters that are still able to react to lights and bashes. Players like myself exist.
    500ms bashes (Conq, Prior, Warlord) are consistently unreactable to everyone that isn't named Silencer, don't try and push any other BS. November and December duel tourneys more than showcased this. Players like Legion were playing completely on reads, and every time they tried to dodge on orange, it was obvious they were caught in the 200ms i-frame delay, meaning their reaction was not enough. It's basically the reason Conq won both. Before CCU the top players could dodge on reaction to buffered/delayed bash about 70% of the time, but now it's apparent their reactions were almost exclusively within that 33ms window that CCU shaved off of bashes. Absolutely nothing to do with animations and all that you wrote about Prior/WL, as it was always the indicator that the best players reacted to.

    So no. If they can't do it, you can't either, neither can an unspecified part of the playerbase you seem to think that can. Every bash that was 500ms before CCU is now unreactable. Lights should not even be in the same sentence as bashes, reacting to 500ms lights (with a block) is significantly easier than reacting to bashes.

    The gross overestimation of players' abilities will forever be a thing about this fanbase, I guess.
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  5. #35
    @Soldier_of_Dawn

    "Again, I'm saying the best way to address light spam is to reduce the damage of lights rather than make them more reactable(remove hidden indicators) and have high stamina costs. That way, players can attack more, and over-relying on lights or light spamming would get them punished."


    And I disagree. Even with lights being in the worst place they've ever been people are still complaining about them. I was very against making lights disadvantaged because it causes issues. Most of the tweaks we got post CCU feedback were strictly because "light spam" was still considered a "problem." And it didn't stop people from complaining. So i've zero faith that your suggestions would cease them. Nor do I believe in what you're trying to peddle to me. FH's kits do not have enough depth to severely gimp one of the two main ways to attack in the game.

    I cannot agree to what you're asking without making changes elsewhere to compensate.
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  6. #36
    Originally Posted by AbuZnood Go to original post
    Very true about kensei and orochi. And I think that Light spam is mostly problematic for them since as soon as they finish theyre light chain, if timed correctly, they can place a quick dodge attack on your frame reaction and get back to another chain.
    This without even touching to their feinting game, deflect, unblockable pressure, etc.
    (And not even touching to their defense game because they are allowed to parry too if I recall)
    The problem mostly come from the kit around this light spamming capacity so nerfing lights would just put pk, nobu, zanhu and a lot more in a unfair situation.
    I don't "feel" the light spam as much with any other hero than these two.
    Dodge attack is far too safe. The extended dodge shouldn't be immune to gb and people will already do less complaint about light spam I think.

    If I'm not mistaken, tiandi don't have any gb immunity while he dodge, or at least I find it to be far easier to catch

    But that's not the subject is it ?
    Orochi can cancel his finisher recoveries to avoid your buffered attack at the end of his chain if he dodges out yes. But all of those options are super reactable so it's more better to use in team fights or ganks and less 1v1 unless you predict something like a bash to answer the end of your chain. Kensei can't cancel his recoveries after a light finisher in anyway. So he's disadvantaged and shouldn't be able to dodge in time unless his light finishers do a good amount of hitstun which atm I do not remember.

    Tandi's GB vulnerability on his dodge heavy is rather noticable. It's bigger than most GB values iirc.
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  7. #37
    Originally Posted by EvoX. Go to original post
    Damn, there is video proof of something that 99% of the time does not happen, a fringe case which in practice is completely useless. I guess that means it's fine the way it is.

    You know what actually happens in a duel? You pick a completely random time to dodge, since you have no idea when it's going to come because Prior is one of the few heroes that have no tell when you're supposed to make a read (effectively making this not an actual read, more like a pure guess), you dodge, Prior player sees this and reaction punishes with a bash. So then you either continue with this completely ineffective strat or you accept you're never getting that GB. Then it's back to GB vs unpunishable bash.

    I absolutely despise being forced to play like this. One of the main reasons I barely play this mess of a game anymore.



    500ms bashes (Conq, Prior, Warlord) are consistently unreactable to everyone that isn't named Silencer, don't try and push any other BS. November and December duel tourneys more than showcased this. Players like Legion were playing completely on reads, and every time they tried to dodge on orange, it was obvious they were caught in the 200ms i-frame delay, meaning their reaction was not enough. It's basically the reason Conq won both. Before CCU the top players could dodge on reaction to buffered/delayed bash about 70% of the time, but now it's apparent their reactions were almost exclusively within that 33ms window that CCU shaved off of bashes. Absolutely nothing to do with animations and all that you wrote about Prior/WL, as it was always the indicator that the best players reacted to.

    So no. If they can't do it, you can't either, neither can an unspecified part of the playerbase you seem to think that can. Every bash that was 500ms before CCU is now unreactable. Lights should not even be in the same sentence as bashes, reacting to 500ms lights (with a block) is significantly easier than reacting to bashes.

    The gross overestimation of players' abilities will forever be a thing about this fanbase, I guess.

    You trying to wash away something that's possible based purely on the likelyhood of it happening is how a child argues. You're not disproving my point in the slightest and how likely it is to happen isn't what being discussed. Soldier claimed it can't happen I said it can and stated proof exists. That's all there is to it. The rest of this is just you *****ing so no real reason to address it.

    Also no, Silencer isn't the only person who can react to 500ms bashes. there's at least 20 people in the comp community that are comparable to him in reactions. And more than a handful of people who do not play competitively who have the reaction times to deal with his bash. But again this isn't even the point being argued. A big issue that's pushed around the comp community as a whole is the game got less reactable but is still far too reactable and they want it unreactable for everyone. Which frankly is a reasonable ask given the game is trying and has been trying to push as a competitive fighter.

    LMAO your proof is that they didn't play perfectly? Wow. I guess someone like Clutch must actually be bad because he eats reactable attacks all the time despite having one of the best reactions in the game? What a joke. Maybe if you learned to read you could maybe see that I was stating I could react to lights currently. But thanks for thinking I was talking about being someone who can react to 500ms bashes. Nice boost for my ego for the day. <3
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  8. #38
    EvoX.'s Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    You trying to wash away something that's possible based purely on the likelyhood of it happening is how a child argues. You're not disproving my point in the slightest and how likely it is to happen isn't what being discussed. Soldier claimed it can't happen I said it can and stated proof exists. That's all there is to it. The rest of this is just you *****ing so no real reason to address it.
    How am I not disproving your point by saying you posted a goddаmn fringe case and are like ''b-but, it's completely possible in theory!!!'' and calls it a day? You didn't disprove anything I said, and the situation I described is exactly how it happens in practice, at least against a Prior that knows 500ms bashes punish dodges on reaction, a.k.a every decent player.

    I'm not gonna entertain a notion that is not met in practice. When something is extremely ineffective and/or unlikely to work, it is not considered effectively possible by default. You don't GB his buffered bash in an actual duel, there is no read to be made, and nobody with half a brain attempts it anyway. Take your worthless theories somewhere else.

    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    Also no, Silencer isn't the only person who can react to 500ms bashes. there's at least 20 people in the comp community that are comparable to him in reactions. And more than a handful of people who do not play competitively who have the reaction times to deal with his bash. But again this isn't even the point being argued. A big issue that's pushed around the comp community as a whole is the game got less reactable but is still far too reactable and they want it unreactable for everyone. Which frankly is a reasonable ask given the game is trying and has been trying to push as a competitive fighter.
    Gonna ask again, did you watch the duel tourneys? It sure sounds like you didn't and you're making crap up so you can keep up your argument. Everyone, including the winner (antonio, the current top 1 GM on PC), could not react to the bash itself. They relied on dodging on forward dodge, or not if they anticipated a dodge-GB. But dodging on orange? Nope. That is gone. I have only seen Silencer do this consistently, and since he was the literal best duelist with the lowest reaction time, and he still is, not that pompous queen, I'm gonna go ahead and dismiss all that BS you wrote about there being 20 others who can do the same as well on top of other unknown players. All in all, you're being vague on purpose - what exactly is ''deal with his bash'' supposed to mean? That you can differentiate between neutral GB and dodge forward/bash with the appropriate response? That you can react to movement and dodge the bash? Or the absolute best way which is dodging on orange, the thing that's effectively no longer possible?

    Here's how it currently is: most For Honor players cannot choice react between GB and forward dodge/bash. So neutral GB vs bash is what a Piror player would best use. Then there are those who can consistently choice react to GB and tech it, plus dodge a buffered bash on movement, but are vulnerable to delayed bash and dodge-GB, a.k.a most comp players and a few other good ones. And then there's Silencer, who can just dodge on UB indicator almost every time.

    You can argue the first two cases, but you cannot argue the third case, because it simply it isn't true. And if you are arguing those two, then that means you basically agree they're unreactable, since nobody, including the top players, dodges on orange anymore - something CCU eliminated. Not that there were that many who could do it before, anyway.

    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    LMAO your proof is that they didn't play perfectly? Wow. I guess someone like Clutch must actually be bad because he eats reactable attacks all the time despite having one of the best reactions in the game? What a joke. Maybe if you learned to read you could maybe see that I was stating I could react to lights currently. But thanks for thinking I was talking about being someone who can react to 500ms bashes. Nice boost for my ego for the day. <3
    My proof is that the entire tournaments were like this, not just a round or two of mistakes. Where have I insinuated perfect play? Sorry, I actually have a brain and can make deductions based on what I'm seeing. Almost everyone that were waiting to react to orange pre-CCU have now switched to a read/anticipation-based playstyle. And what does that imply? That the previous method is no longer effective due to CCU. I'm not and never was talking about something like failing to block the odd 500ms light here and there, I'm talking about a complete playstyle change when it comes to dealing with certain bashes that the CCU enforced even on the best players. You can pretend that's not the case because you glorify them or for whatever other reason, but don't try to peddle it to me.

    I'm very curious why were those paragraphs about WL's bash having a subtle animation vs Prior having an obvious one needed if you weren't talking about how reactable they are. You can't dodge either bash based on animation with a correct choice reaction, so to me it looks like useless trivia.
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  9. #39
    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    @Soldier_of_Dawn

    "Again, I'm saying the best way to address light spam is to reduce the damage of lights rather than make them more reactable(remove hidden indicators) and have high stamina costs. That way, players can attack more, and over-relying on lights or light spamming would get them punished."


    And I disagree. Even with lights being in the worst place they've ever been people are still complaining about them. I was very against making lights disadvantaged because it causes issues. Most of the tweaks we got post CCU feedback were strictly because "light spam" was still considered a "problem." And it didn't stop people from complaining. So i've zero faith that your suggestions would cease them. Nor do I believe in what you're trying to peddle to me. FH's kits do not have enough depth to severely gimp one of the two main ways to attack in the game.

    I cannot agree to what you're asking without making changes elsewhere to compensate.
    Let's be clear on one thing. When you and I go back and forth, I'm not trying to make you see things my way. You and I don't agree on a lot of things and probably never will. I entertain the discussion to understand people's perspectives in general and express my views which not only the moderators will see but hopefully the developers will see as well since they are interested in and do read our feedback.

    Lights are not in the worst place they have ever been. That's a gross exaggeration, if not, false. I'm pretty sure seasons 1-5 hold the title on that one. The damage has barely been nerfed and they are less reactable and unreactable to most players so they land more often. Many are happy they are getting light parried less often.

    Going by this thread alone, more people seem to lean towards the idea that reducing the damage of lights is a better way to deal with light spam. If the devs did this, yes, there would still be complainers probably because there are those that want the CCU to be undone and everything to be reactable. It wouldn't be a big deal if the was the case because I'm sure a greater percentage of the community would be happy to have more time to make reads, deal with less viable light spam, and have a more accessible game.

    Now since the developers are interested in addressing player frustration, as we've seen from the CCU regarding light spam and the nerfs in the reworks from Testing Grounds December 2020, I wouldn't be surprised if the devs did start looking at light damage to address light spam and standardising BP's short bashes so they can be punished on read consistently like the others. It wouldn't hurt because he still would be strong and, as other heroes have proved, having unpunishable short bashes isn't necessary. These changes would help make the game more accessible in terms of read based offense. Of course, more would need to done.

    Correct me where I'm wrong but you keep going on about competitive play as if the game should only be balanced around that. That would be a mistake as that would lead to the needs of the majority or a significant portion of the community being ignored. Not only would that be unhealthy for the game and the community, in light of past disconnects as well as the mixed reactions to the CCU, but would be a bad business decision if Ubisoft still wants optimised sales. Again, since the devs are focused on addressing player frustration and want the game to be more accessible and enjoyable for as many players as possible, I highly doubt balancing the game solely around the minority is on the agenda. Finding that middle ground is what is best for the game.
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  10. #40
    Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Dawn Go to original post
    Let's be clear on one thing. When you and I go back and forth, I'm not trying to make you see things my way. You and I don't agree on a lot of things and probably never will. I entertain the discussion to understand people's perspectives in general and express my views which not only the moderators will see but hopefully the developers will see as well since they are interested in and do read our feedback.

    Lights are not in the worst place they have ever been. That's a gross exaggeration, if not, false. I'm pretty sure seasons 1-5 hold the title on that one. The damage has barely been nerfed and they are less reactable and unreactable to most players so they land more often. Many are happy they are getting light parried less often.

    Going by this thread alone, more people seem to lean towards the idea that reducing the damage of lights is a better way to deal with light spam. If the devs did this, yes, there would still be complainers probably because there are those that want the CCU to be undone and everything to be reactable. It wouldn't be a big deal if the was the case because I'm sure a greater percentage of the community would be happy to have more time to make reads, deal with less viable light spam, and have a more accessible game.

    Now since the developers are interested in addressing player frustration, as we've seen from the CCU regarding light spam and the nerfs in the reworks from Testing Grounds December 2020, I wouldn't be surprised if the devs did start looking at light damage to address light spam and standardising BP's short bashes so they can be punished on read consistently like the others. It wouldn't hurt because he still would be strong and, as other heroes have proved, having unpunishable short bashes isn't necessary. These changes would help make the game more accessible in terms of read based offense. Of course, more would need to done.

    Correct me where I'm wrong but you keep going on about competitive play as if the game should only be balanced around that. That would be a mistake as that would lead to the needs of the majority or a significant portion of the community being ignored. Not only would that be unhealthy for the game and the community, in light of past disconnects as well as the mixed reactions to the CCU, but would be a bad business decision if Ubisoft still wants optimised sales. Again, since the devs are focused on addressing player frustration and want the game to be more accessible and enjoyable for as many players as possible, I highly doubt balancing the game solely around the minority is on the agenda. Finding that middle ground is what is best for the game.
    Oh don't worry I know you're not trying to change my perspective. I still remember a bit of our last spat we had. I respect you. I will also be clear and state that I come here still purely to see what a different side of the community states. Even if I tend to always disagree. It's important to understand any and every side of something imo. I will clarify. I believe lights are in the worst place they have been relative to the game as a whole.

    If we consider what the game was like back then sure, I could see your point. However in my mind it's like this. Lights back then did more damage but punishes were also bigger. Lights were reactable to most. Lights now? significantly weaker than before while punishes despite being lower are still pretty high in comparison (risk/vs reward.) In addition to that they are frame disadvantaged. And still pretty reactable. Less for the average player sure. But still quite reactable. So that's why they're in "the worst spot ever." They still don't feel good enough to stand on their own as proper attacks. Even though I don't agree with taking lights down damage wise I could still accept it if they were truly unreactable for the vast populace. IMO that's not currently the case. And I just personally disagree with having FD for FH.


    I should correct myself here again or at least be more clear. It is not that I think only competitive play should be considered. Balancing from the top down yes. But not just the top. I understand they have to look out for the general playerbase. That's why it made sense for them to make changes to address feedback from CCU against "light spam." I understood in principal, just didn't agree with all the changes made. However I still have my own beliefs. I do not believe in making changes for any particular group if it's:

    1) Bad for the overall health of the game
    2) Isn't going to really help/meet the goal the change is trying to accomplish
    3) Or does reach the goal it set out to do but at the cost of harming other parts of the game

    As an easy example I personally do not mind Goki losing his armor on his hug. The reason the devs want to do it is bunk though. And I don't think it's a good change specifically because it's only going to make Goki worse all around. Just for the sake of reducing how often it supposedly lands. Where as removing HA on goki's lights either doesn't have an impact or actually improves interactions with the character as a whole. And only minorly hurts the character. In short the change isn't great for Goki but is for the good of the game. So I support it.

    Now a blanket nerf to light damage, in my opinion, isn't really going to accomplish the goal of preventing light spam. I think people who can't or won't understand and use frame advantage are still going to be blendered often enough for it to remain a complaint. And I think it's only going to make lights feel worse in the upper parts of the games playing field. At the moment I use both lights and zones to try and stuff mix ups/peel for allies. If opening lights start doing say sub 10 damage i'm just never going to use them if I can help it. Which we should avoid doing.

    Rather, if i'm going to be on board with damage changes to lights they need to be targeted and they need to make sense. So perhaps some characters get a slight damage bump downward though their kit lights wise (say kensei.) Other characters could maybe have weaker light finisher damage (say maybe Orochi.) etc. Regardless i'd still push for buffs elsewhere. I understand that pushing lights to be unreactable for everyone is a big ask. But we could at least meet there partially by having a setup first. An idea I quite like would be buffing hard feints so that the first attack thrown after the feint would not do a parry flash. This makes feints a more diverse mechanic and accomplishes my goal some what whilst not speeding things up to further upset players who dislike the "much faster" ccu update.

    Alternatively we can simply make the vast majority of light attacks frame neutral. Some could stay FD like BP's light after any given bash of his so he can't "infinite loop" bash you to death like the CCU has prevented. The position more or less here is I don't really agree with you in principal. But i'm willing to be flexible if we do it right and we give a little elsewhere.
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